There should be some changes to the Learn by Reading System.

[Dyeman]

I think this game is really good at it's core and while I personally I liked the game in Alpha 20, I don't want to revert to an older Alpha.
If I was to revert I would miss out on things like the new animations and other changes.
The older Learn By Doing Crafting system and unlocking recipes through certain skills just worked better for me and I really do not like this new magazine Crafting system.

The Magazine system is not all bad as some players do seem to like the slower progression that this system brings.
Other players also feel that this system helps to incentivize more looting and interaction with the Trader.
One player brought up a valid point that, without the need to unlock crafting recipes through skill points, we now have a little bit more flexibility in the skills we can get.

However, this Magazine System does not offer a lot in terms of player control over what magazines skills you unlock.
There is the whole "Put a perk point into a certain skill to increase the chance of certain magazines".
However, that little bit of control feels very weird, is still luck based, and I personally didn't see anything in-game that mentioned it.
The trader skill magazines can be a bit pricey for early-game and doesn't feel good to grind out at times.

Reading through other players discussions shows me that many players either install a mod to replace the magazine system or install a mod to add a new crafting table to the magazine system that allows them to convert three magazines into a different magazine.

If we are to make players happier with the Magazine crafting system I recommend the Following Changes.

1) Implement the crafting table mod that allows players to convert three magazine to another one or make it an option at the Trader.
This would give the player more control over what skills they unlock by giving them the choice to sacrifice three magazines they don't want at the moment for a magazine they do want.

2) Make the player learn magazine skills as they use Tools related to the magazine skill.
If the player was to have an experience bar for each skill that leveled up as the player used tools from that skill it would reduce the amount of magazines required.
This would greatly help out with early game and even a bit with mid-game but as the player get stronger they would be set-up good enough to use the trader on a daily. 
This change would take the most effort to implement and I would understand if it was to be ignored.

These are the main two changes that I feel would help make this magazine system better.
If other players have any other ideas I am open to suggestions.
I am open to hear what makes the current magazine system good and bad to you.

 

[meganoth]

However, that little bit of control feels very weird, is still luck based, and I personally didn't see anything in-game that mentioned it.

Small corrections here:

That bit of control is quite massive, i.e. make sure you only invest in a few perks which push magazines and perk them high, and the majority of magazines you will find will be from those perks.

And it is mentioned in a journal tool tip, in challenges and in the description of the perks that influence magazine drop chance. This is the text for the master chef perk:

Cooking is not your thing, but you know some basics. Use 20% less of a recipe's main ingredients. Cook 40% faster. Find more cooking magazines in loot.

 

[BFT2020]

This is the mod discussion section.  Are you asking someone to mod the game for you?

 

[Dyeman]

This is the mod discussion section.  Are you asking someone to mod the game for you?

I thought this was the game change suggestion section of the forum.

Small corrections here:

That bit of control is quite massive, i.e. make sure you only invest in a few perks which push magazines and perk them high, and the majority of magazines you will find will be from those perks.

And it is mentioned in a journal tool tip, in challenges and in the description of the perks that influence magazine drop chance. This is the text for the master chef perk:

I am blind and did not see those. sorry.

though, it is still very weird system.

 

[bdubyah]

I thought this was the game change suggestion section of the forum.

 

[FramFramson]

Well, it does say 'requests' as well.

I mean, the likelihood of people making mods in response to random forum requests is, uh, not high, but this is technically the place to post those.

 

[bdubyah]

Requests pertaining to modding. Not vanilla game feedback. People make requests that others help with quite often. Plenty of examples of that. Regardless, this isn't the place to offer feedback to TFP about how the base game functions.

 

[meganoth]

I moved the thread to Pimp Dreams. It is only consequent that Dyeman didn't really read the descriptions of the perks AND didn't really read the descriptions of the forum sections

 

[Dyeman]

I moved the thread to Pimp Dreams. It is only consequent that Dyeman didn't really read the descriptions of the perks AND didn't really read the descriptions of the forum sections

Thank you. Sorry for the mess.

 

[zztong]

1) Implement the crafting table mod that allows players to convert three magazine to another one or make it an option at the Trader.

I'm not into the crafting table approach. It seems too abstract.

The Trader, on the other hand, kind of works already. That is you can sell a Trader unwanted magazines and buy magazines that you want. My observation is this approach works in single player, but I wonder if in multiplayer there would be a short stock and a race to get to the Trader.

2) Make the player learn magazine skills as they use Tools related to the magazine skill.

I'm not really a fan of "Learn by Doing" exclusively, I think it would be okay if some "crafting" or "doing" events could give points towards magazine learning. For instance, while you're likely to discover an improved technique by crafting 100 hammers it isn't compelling game play. But if you were to craft a tier 6 stone axe, or maybe a stone axe of each tier, then maybe that could be worth a point, or two, or more? In that regard, a player would have some direct control over their advancement.

That bit of control is quite massive, i.e. make sure you only invest in a few perks which push magazines and perk them high, and the majority of magazines you will find will be from those perks.

While that's probably true, I'm foggy on something. If I pick Cooking, and max out cooking, does it then de-emphasize Cooking? I ask because as a single player the magazines I want change over time as I reach my crafting goals. I might, for example, emphasize cooking early and then want to emphasize vehicles later. I often feel in the later game that I'm still getting a heavy dose of cooking even though I have maxed it out.

I'll eventually (as I progress through the levels) have all of the skills that express a preference for magazines. Does that make all of the magazines equal to one another again?

 

[Riamus]

I'm not into the crafting table approach. It seems too abstract.

The Trader, on the other hand, kind of works already. That is you can sell a Trader unwanted magazines and buy magazines that you want. My observation is this approach works in single player, but I wonder if in multiplayer there would be a short stock and a race to get to the Trader.

I'm not really a fan of "Learn by Doing" exclusively, I think it would be okay if some "crafting" or "doing" events could give points towards magazine learning. For instance, while you're likely to discover an improved technique by crafting 100 hammers it isn't compelling game play. But if you were to craft a tier 6 stone axe, or maybe a stone axe of each tier, then maybe that could be worth a point, or two, or more? In that regard, a player would have some direct control over their advancement.

While that's probably true, I'm foggy on something. If I pick Cooking, and max out cooking, does it then de-emphasize Cooking? I ask because as a single player the magazines I want change over time as I reach my crafting goals. I might, for example, emphasize cooking early and then want to emphasize vehicles later. I often feel in the later game that I'm still getting a heavy dose of cooking even though I have maxed it out.

I'll eventually (as I progress through the levels) have all of the skills that express a preference for magazines. Does that make all of the magazines equal to one another again?

Pretty sure the bonus disappears once you max the magazines, though it is hard to tell for me since I don't focus on perks in order to get specific magazines.

 

[meganoth]

Yes, the bonus goes away at max. The problem with cooking magazines is that there are a lot of containers (in kitchens) that drop only cooking magazines. So even without having any bonus for finding cooking magazines all the kitchens you loot will have cooking magazines for you.

 

[Dyeman]

I'm not into the crafting table approach. It seems too abstract.

The Trader, on the other hand, kind of works already. That is you can sell a Trader unwanted magazines and buy magazines that you want. My observation is this approach works in single player, but I wonder if in multiplayer there would be a short stock and a race to get to the Trader.

The Trader does not feel like a good option for trading Crafting Magazines right now
You currently sell crafting magazines to the trader for 20 Dukes each and in order to buy a crafting magazine back from the trader it requires 300 Dukes.
So it is currently a 15 magazine for 1 magazine trade and not really a good option unless you are already set up with magazines.  

So far the crafting table is my favorite approach as I personally feel it would be easy to implement, not to hard to balance, and also I really like the idea of the player choice this brings. 
Unfortunately, it does mean that I am personally finding it hard to imagine different approaches aside from this.
 

I'm not really a fan of "Learn by Doing" exclusively, I think it would be okay if some "crafting" or "doing" events could give points towards magazine learning. For instance, while you're likely to discover an improved technique by crafting 100 hammers it isn't compelling game play. But if you were to craft a tier 6 stone axe, or maybe a stone axe of each tier, then maybe that could be worth a point, or two, or more? In that regard, a player would have some direct control over their advancement.

I was thinking along the lines of a hybrid system where there is magazines and the player also learns by crafting or using tools related to the skill. 
I felt that maybe with some way to earn magazine point aside from just magazines there would be more options for the player to gain skill points while still keeping magazines the primary focus.
Like, this is a complete shot in the dark but, what if whenever you crafted an item for the first time or visited a new location for the first time then you would you gain some experience in like a special Magazine skill experience bar?
And then once you maxed out that Magazine would give you a free magazine skill point you could invest into any magazine skill you wanted.



 

That bit of control is quite massive, i.e. make sure you only invest in a few perks which push magazines and perk them high, and the majority of magazines you will find will be from those perks.

While that's probably true, I'm foggy on something. If I pick Cooking, and max out cooking, does it then de-emphasize Cooking? I ask because as a single player the magazines I want change over time as I reach my crafting goals. I might, for example, emphasize cooking early and then want to emphasize vehicles later. I often feel in the later game that I'm still getting a heavy dose of cooking even though I have maxed it out.

I'll eventually (as I progress through the levels) have all of the skills that express a preference for magazines. Does that make all of the magazines equal to one another again?

To me this really doesn't feel like a lot of control.
Personally I found with my luck that, even with a perk point invested into a perk that I want skill Magazines for, I still have a very high chance of getting every other magazine.


Thank you zztong for your inciteful response.

 

[zztong]

You currently sell crafting magazines to the trader for 20 Dukes each and in order to buy a crafting magazine back from the trader it requires 300 Dukes.
So it is currently a 15 magazine for 1 magazine trade and not really a good option unless you are already set up with magazines.

While I do think a Trader would want to make a profit, 15:1 is steep. He is a monopoly. -- That's just me rationalizing. I could see how the ratio could be out of whack for what I was suggesting. At some point the only thing I have to spend Dukes on is magazines, so I've never really thought about the ratio.

So far the crafting table is my favorite approach as I personally feel it would be easy to implement, not to hard to balance, and also I really like the idea of the player choice this brings. 

While I can admire the choice, I don't get the connection to a workbench. I have a desk (the workstation) and a bunch of journal articles scattered across it. What can I do on a desk that transforms those journal articles into some other journal article? These 5 EE journal articles combine into cooking? But I don't want to put words in your mouth. You must see some other logic to it that I haven't seen yet.

I was thinking along the lines of a hybrid system where there is magazines and the player also learns by crafting or using tools related to the skill. 
I felt that maybe with some way to earn magazine point aside from just magazines there would be more options for the player to gain skill points while still keeping magazines the primary focus.

Yes, this is where I see potential.

• I could see where using a club to kill 100 zombies would teach you something about improving clubs. So give a magazine point for that milestone. Maybe 100 and 1,000 for milestones, but that's it. (A modest dose of learning by using.)
  
• I could see where having crafted some clubs could give you insight on improving clubs. Maybe give a magazine point for making a Tier 6 crude club and a magazine point for making a tier 6 baseball bat. Or maybe tier 5 is the better choice because tier 6 requires another resource. (A modest dose of learning by doing.)
  

Like, this is a complete shot in the dark but, what if whenever you crafted an item for the first time or visited a new location for the first time then you would you gain some experience in like a special Magazine skill experience bar?

Maybe, though I think the item itself is the reward for having crafted it for the first time. I don't disagree that the first thing you make will certainly teach you a lot. Yeh, I could see adding that, sort of. I mean making a stone club sure. But does making a bicycle help you make a gyrocopter? Yeh, I guess that works. Okay, I could go with this.

I don't see visiting a location as being a direct benefit. Visiting locations is already an indirect benefit -- that's where the loot is.

Thank you zztong for your inciteful response

Heh, I'm going to choose to read that as "insightful."

 

[Dyeman]

Heh, I'm going to choose to read that as "insightful."

Thank you again for being a very understanding person.
I meant to write insightful but i just chose the wrong word when typing.

I am very happy to have someone who is willing to at least sit here and talk about it.
I have seen a lot more people who have some deep feelings about this game but would rather scream on the Steam discussions rather then bring their ideas here or even have a thoughtful talk.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Personal I like LBR but I think a mix of systems would be good

Learn by doing to buff some small things like running shooting etc

Learn by unlocking 

And Learn by reading  

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

1 Right now there is a game mechanic that keeps a tally of all
of the zombies that are dispatched.

2 Players have favorite weapons, tools, and sub-skills that they go to.

3 These weapons and tools follow the hierarchy of the 5 parent skills
Perception, Strength, Fortitude, Agility, Intelligence.

4 The following circumstances are not necessarily 100% but have
a high probability of being followed.

The weapons and tools used can indicate the preferential skill trees
that the player favors. The weapons and the tools used can represent
the perks that the player would invest more heavily in. The most coveted
books would be those that apply to the above two statements.

Presently the books apply to the individual, weapons tools and sub skills
example: cooking. Instead a possible concession that might meet needs on
all sides is the reduction of book quantity yielded, and monitor the primary
Parent skills used. To the parental group, apply the added percentage
possibility of which types of books the player would find.

Its not nearly a perfect idea, but it may be simpler to govern by a dev dealing
with numeric input. 4-5 variables vs a minimum of 65-1200 variables.

It would also contour the books generated; to the skilltree, instead of single
items or skills. 

 

[Vaeliorin]

While I can admire the choice, I don't get the connection to a workbench. I have a desk (the workstation) and a bunch of journal articles scattered across it. What can I do on a desk that transforms those journal articles into some other journal article? These 5 EE journal articles combine into cooking? But I don't want to put words in your mouth. You must see some other logic to it that I haven't seen yet.

There isn't a real world logic to it, it's simply a gameplay mechanic.  When you end up with 100s of magazines you have no use for, being able to do something with them other than sell them for a pittance is nice. 

Granted, I very much dislike the learn by reading system because I don't want to have to spend most of my time looting, so I'm admittedly biased.

 

[Akuman]

The first sentence doesn't fit the style of the game at all. It's unrealistic. The second sentence is a global redesign, which is very unlikely on the part of the developers. It will be like Skyrim, as I understand it.

I am also concerned about the journal system. I wanted to write about this recently. As I understand it, now magazines do only that, they stretch gameplay. They give the opportunity to try more gameplay functions for survival, in addition to the electric fence by the first blood moon. To carry out missions actively and to explore the world. 

The downside to this, in my opinion, is that the gameplay becomes monotonous. I think this can be solved by making zombies more complex. More unpredictability in their behavior. For example, adding zombies that climb walls. How do you like that idea, huh? Maybe I should make a separate post about this? 

 

[Dyeman]

The downside to this, in my opinion, is that the gameplay becomes monotonous. I think this can be solved by making zombies more complex. More unpredictability in their behavior. For example, adding zombies that climb walls. How do you like that idea, huh? Maybe I should make a separate post about this? 

I wont argue there. I think that a lot of the zombies have become repetitive, they used to have a spider zombie in this game but changed it to become a leaping zombie.

I wish there was a mole zombie who dug through dirt and walls during blood moons to help break up all the zombie running in a straight path.
I would like zombies in this game to be a bit more interesting to fight at times. However, I do not see how it would solve the magazine system problems I have.