PC The downside of books - your thoughts?

OzHawkeye

OzHawkeye

Community Moderator
So, a lot of people aren't big fans of the Perk system as it is in A17.

I also see a lot of people harking back to the book system used in previous Alphas to unlock certain recipes. For those in favour of such a system though, I'd like to know your opinions about book rarity.

You see, to me, the great downfall of the book system was always that the more fundamental the recipe gated by the book, the more common the book had to be, and therefore the less point in gating the recipe behind a book was in the first place.

The perfect example of this was the Forge Ahead book, without which, in previous Alpha's, you were stuck in the Stone age. Ultimately, before it's much un-mourned demise, the book had to be made so common by the Pimps, that it was virtually worthless as a gating mechanic in the first place.

While not a book, another good, and personal example, I can think of was the old Calipers, which on one game, take me 130 days to find just one. I can honestly and safely say, it wasn't a sense of joy that I went without the calipers for 130 days, or exultation at finally finding one, but frustration bordering on murderous rage that it had taken so long.

So, for those in favour of the old book system (or pushing it for a revival in future Alphas), how would you overcome the potential for a gate to cripple an unlucky players game?

 
Multiple avenues to complete the task.

Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need.

Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one.

Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course...

Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together.

TFP can be clever; they can give us a strong game system, one that utilizes everyone's strengths. Or, they can keep going the cheap way out. This close to gold, I'm not holding my breath.

 
Make it a gamestage thing:

Increase a books's/gate-item's drop chance with days passed, or better –days stayed alive. (NOT zombies killed.)

Offer alternative route using the new quest system, for those who still are unlucky:

Do a certain amount of missions from specialist NPCs, which in turn dispense rare tools, or part with the needed knowledge.

That would be the failsafe, that's more fun/engaging/varied/immersive than "I need x points to get to level y to unlock z".

 
Make it a gamestage thing:Increase a books's/gate-item's drop chance with days passed, or better –days stayed alive. (NOT zombies killed.)

Offer alternative route using the new quest system, for those who still are unlucky:

Do a certain amount of missions from specialist NPCs, which in turn dispense rare tools, or part with the needed knowledge.

That would be the failsafe, that's more fun/engaging/varied/immersive than "I need x points to get to level y to unlock z".
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Yeah, or just have the trader start stocking the recipe to sell at a certain gamestage.

 
All of these posts have great ideas!

The way I see it, books add more things to strive for by looting. Leave the perks (as an RNG warranty) just add books for most crafting recipes (Although I believe that there are things that you should NEVER be able to craft, only loot or buy... but I'll leave that for another thread.)

Adding some RARE/EPIC recipes that can ONLY be looted can be even better, as it opens up LATE GAME looting.

The point being a psychological achievement as you'd still need the materials but it still feels like a ♥♥♥♥ YEAH! moment. (a "feeling" that this game DESPERATELY needs!)

 
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Multiple avenues to complete the task.
Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need.

Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one.

Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course...

Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together.

TFP can be clever; they can give us a strong game system, one that utilizes everyone's strengths. Or, they can keep going the cheap way out. This close to gold, I'm not holding my breath.
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You could still have it in the perk tree with a "skip" option instead of buy? Once skipped you rely on RNG or quests. Giving those who want it NOW the opportunity to do so? I'd probably skip and save my points for combat.

/trying to please everyone since 1970

 
RNG books with a backup path (For when RNGesus hates you) would be my preference.

Quests or point allocation would both be potential optional paths.

The feeling of exultation(today's word of the day) at a big score during a Barnes&Noble\Crack a Book pillaging... aahhh... those were the days. :)

 
I always enjoyed the books, sure they could be frustrating but it gave me something to hunt for. I suppose they could have made them craftable maybe by breaking down books you don't need, or requiring them whole with some other rare item like a pen. With the trader overhaul they would have made nice items to fill out the high end of the store. I remember the forge book days but if I remember right there were no destroyed forges back then either, if you found yourself the forge cabin you were good to go.

 
Ew, gamestage gates are as lame as level gates.
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My suggestion wouldn't mean the gamestage as hard gate. Nothing like "At level 40 the glowy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s start spawning on you – hope you have enough bullets by then! :p ".

There would be a chance to find a schematic from day 1 if RNGesus wills, the higher gamestage would only slightly increase the standing with RNGesus, but it would still be RNG.

Base min chance to drop +days survived/10 (or whatever is a balanced value here)= actual chance to drop.

Capped at a possible max, depending on what the item actually is and how "rare" it is supposed to be. So chance for a "forge ahead" book could go from 5 to 70%, while chance for calipers would maybe just go from 1 to 30%.

OP was about how to deal with the downside of RNG, apart from the alternative failsafes like perks/skills/rewards this one actually adresses it directly – all without any hard gates, points or killing x amount of Zs, you just need to stay alive doing whatever you want.

 
This can be overcome with "Day 30" Trader's stock.

The entire stock changes after day 30... or 50 ... or whatever...

After said day the Traders now stock rare books for a premium.

No worries!

 
This can be overcome with "Day 30" Trader's stock.
The entire stock changes after day 30... or 50 ... or whatever...

After said day the Traders now stock rare books for a premium.

No worries!
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Keeping multiplayer and individual progression in mind, it should be tied to player's time spent(or -survived, to apply some challenge) on the server, not the global day.

 
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Keeping multiplayer and individual progression in mind, it should be tied to player's time spent(or -survived, to apply some challenge) on the server, not the global day.
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I love that idea!!!

 
It has merits, but then it literally specifies an end game.

"You're at 100 days, you're as good as you're going to get".

 
Keeping multiplayer and individual progression in mind, it should be tied to player's time spent(or -survived, to apply some challenge) on the server, not the global day.
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You just gave me an idea... Lucky looter/Joe perk should only apply to how much time you've been alive.

Base bonus for staying alive/not dying during normal gameplay:

1-3 days = 0

4 days = 5

5 days = 10

..

10 days = 50 (like the goggles)

Lucky Looter Perk 1/2/3 = 10%/25%/40%

That way we could be rewarded for staying alive instead of punished for dying.

I'm thinking single player here.. MP gets a little more complicated (doable though).

Add this to the possibilities of finding the "rare"/"not found yet" books and RNG will be on your side as long as you don't die and are at the right game stage/level.

Brainstorming here...

 
Multiple avenues to complete the task.
Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need.

Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one.

Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course...

Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together.
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Hmmm, I wonder if we'd had those avenues back when we had books, we might still have them.

Some good ideas in this thread, so it does look like there's ways to make a book system (or at least a hybrid one) work.

 
Yeh we had them, but instead of fixing a broken system, the pimps replaced it with another broken system.

It really is their MO.

I can't fathom the thought process behind re-working the same thing alpha after alpha after alpha with only adding a relatively small amount of NEW content. I mean sure I guess since this system is a new replacement for the old system, it counts as new content, but um, it kinda defies the spirit of new content, if you know what I mean?

I dunno, at any rate, even if the books/quests/skills were not available at the time, some foresight would have solved that issue.

 
Yeh we had them, but instead of fixing a broken system, the pimps replaced it with another broken system.
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Not at the earliest point, if I recall correctly.

Books pre-dated Quests and Skills.

That said, in a perfect world, I'd likes mah books back if I coulds.

 
Yeh we had them, but instead of fixing a broken system, the pimps replaced it with another broken system.
It really is their MO.

I can't fathom the thought process behind re-working the same thing alpha after alpha after alpha with only adding a relatively small amount of NEW content. I mean sure I guess since this system is a new replacement for the old system, it counts as new content, but um, it kinda defies the spirit of new content, if you know what I mean?

I dunno, at any rate, even if the books/quests/skills were not available at the time, some foresight would have solved that issue.
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Wouldn't you love to sit in on a few of these staff meetings?

I really want to know how these conversations go.

I support TFP, I like A17.... but this "new" system stopped being fun in 1990.

I don't know what they are thinking...

.... this is why you shouldn't plan game mechanics while really stoned.

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