I've already recently done a thread for melee, and then armour, so might as well weigh-in on the current firearm situation and how I'd shuffle it around without changing the current vibe too much.
Currently, we've got a few tier guns.
Pipe (t0?): Pistol (9mm), Shotgun (any?), Machinegun (7.62), Rifle (7.62).
Iron? (t1?): Pistol (9mm), Double-barrel shotgun (any?), Ak47 (7.62), Hunting Rifle (7.62).
T2?: Magnum revolver (.44), Pump shotgun (any?), Tac (7.62), Lever-action rifle (7.62).
T3?: SMG (9mm), Desert Vulture (.44), Auto shotgun (any?), M60 (7.62), Sniper (7.62).
Currently the situation we have with ammo is, the "basic" ammo drops, then the next type replaces it in loot, and for most guns the advanced ammo replaced that in loot. So you'll find Buckshot, basic 9mm, basic 7.62, maybe basic .44. Then it'll be AP Slugs, red-tip (hollow-point/hi-power) 9mm, red-tip 7.62, red-tip .44. Then it'll be black-tip 9mm ("AP", aka armour-piercing), black-tip 7.62, black-tip .44. I don't think breaching slugs are treated the same way, because I'm flooded with black-tip ammo and never see any breaching slugs in loot.
I'll also add that, for bows and crossbows, we have:
Primitive Bow,
Wooden Bow / Iron Crossbow,
Compound Bow / Compound Crossbow.
And they use:
Stone arrows / stone bolts,
Iron arrows / iron bolts,
Steel arrows / steel bolts,
Explosive arrows / explosive bolts.
They both also have flaming arrows / flaming bolts, which don't fit into the ammo progression (I think they're around iron arrow/bolt level in damage? not sure).
So we've currently got, by my count, 17 guns and 5 "bows", with 12 firearm ammo types and 10 archery ammo types.
The current issues I see with this setup come down to 2 main categories:
1) ammo types
2) overlapping weapon categories
Firstly, 7DTD has a big issue with firearm overlap. The pistol skill is also the submachinegun skill, and uses the same ammo. The rifle and machinegun skills are separate, but use the same exact ammo. And .44 is a whole subcategory of pistols and has their own dedicated ammo.
So, how would I re-divide things:
1. Arrows (bows) and bolts (crossbows) should be the same item. No, I don't care about immersion in that, just make them the same thing.
Stone arrows & bolts, iron arrows & bolts, steel arrows & bolts, explosive arrows & bolts.
That cuts 10 ammo types down to 4. Flaming arrows and flaming bolts were never useful for anything anyway.
2. Add in .32 ACP as an ammo type.
3. Add in .40 ACP as an ammo type.
4. Add in 5.56 NATO as an ammo type.
Currently, when given the choice for pipe bundles, the pipe machinegun is just the strongest by a fair margin. So I'd like to start by addressing that by adjusting the ammo tiers, and of course making the pipe machinegun use 5.56.
New lowest-tier ammo types:
.32 (most common)
Buckshot
9mm
7.62 basic
Stone arrows & bolts
.44 basic
Mid-tier ammo:
Buckshot
9mm
7.62 basic
Iron arrows & bolts
5.56 basic
.44 basic
High-tier ammo:
AP Slugs
.40
7.62 AP
Steel arrows & bolts
5.56 basic
.44 AP
End-tier ammo:
AP Slugs
Breaching Slugs
.40
7.62 AP
Explosive arrows & bolts
5.56 AP
.44 AP
This gives us the ammo line-up of:
.32 ACP, an early-game ammo used for 2 pistols and 1 SMG.
Buckshot, early-mid game shotgun ammo.
9mm, mid-game ammo used for 1 pistol and 1 SMG.
7.62 (basic), early-mid ammo used exclusively for rifles.
.44 (basic), ammo used for 1 rifle and 2 pistols.
Stone arrows & bolts, early-game bow & crossbow ammo.
5.56 (basic), mid-game ammo used for machineguns (assault rifles).
Iron arrows & bolts, mid-game bow & crossbow ammo.
AP Slugs, mid-late game shotgun ammo.
.40, end-game ammo used for 1 pistol and 1 SMG.
7.62 AP, mid-late ammo used exclusively for rifles.
.44 AP, mid-late ammo used for 1 rifle and 2 pistols.
Steel arrows & bolts, mid-late-game bow & crossbow ammo.
Edit: Breaching Slugs, end-game shotgun ammo for breaking doors and chests.
5.56 AP, end-game machinegun (assault rifle) ammo.
Explosive arrows & bolts, end-game bow & crossbow ammo.
That's 11 firearm ammo types, down from the current 12.
Edit: It's 12 firearm ammo types, same as it is currently.
The weapons... Starting with T0 "pipe tier"/"stone tier":
Pipe Pistol (.32).
Pipe Rifle (7.62).
Pipe Shotgun (any shotgun ammo).
Pipe submachinegun (9mm).
Pipe machinegun (5.56).
Pipe Baton (I guess I'll include this here, just because it's in the pipe bundle).
Primitive bow.
The idea here is to give players a meaningful choice. If they choose the pipe pistol, which uses .32, they're more likely to have access to .32 ammo from early loot, quest rewards, and perhaps to purchase from the trader. It's a weaker, but more sustainable option, than pipe submachinegun or pipe machinegun.
Whereas the pipe submachinegun and pipe machinegun use ammo that might be more difficult to obtain early, but they made for better "panic weapons" (if a zombie dog catches you by surprise). And if you do get the ammo to feed them, they're stronger weapons for their tier.
Pipe rifle and pipe shotgun, on the other hand, use ammo that their class of guns uses the whole game long. So you're more likely to get a slow and steady trickle of that ammo, and instead you're limited by the pipe gun's magazine capacity of 1, and slow reload.
Tier-1:
Compact Pistol (.32). This makes the most sense to me as a "purse pistol", or even a "toilet pistol". It's an upgrade over the pipe pistol, and uses early-game ammo.
Hunting Rifle (7.62, same as it currently is).
Double-barrel shotgun (any shotgun ammo, same as it currently is).
(no submachinegun or machineguns in this tier, to balance their power)
Wooden Bow, Iron Crossbow.
Tier-2:
Pistol (9mm). Same as the current Pistol, but maybe stronger.
Lever-Action Rifle (.44). Allows rifle-users to start using two ammo types, 7.62 and .44.
Compact SMG (.32). This gives players a method of spending the .32 ammo they're getting, while also letting them have the pipe submachinegun to spend their 9mm ammo.
AK (5.56). Same as the current AK-47, but using 5.56 instead of 7.62.
Compound Bow, Compound Crossbow.
Tier-2.5:
Revolver (.44). Same as the current .44 magnum revolver.
Pump Shotgun (any shotgun ammo, same as it currently is).
Police SMG (9mm). Weaker version of the current SMG-5.
Tactical Assault Rifle (5.56). Same as the current Tac. Don't think it deserves to be a full tier higher than the AK.
Tier-3:
Advanced Pistol (.40). Basically a better version of the Pistol to compete with other end-game guns.
Desert Vulture (.44). Same as the current Desert Vulture.
Sniper (7.62). Same as the current Sniper.
Auto Shotgun (any shotgun ammo). Same as the current auto shotty.
Advanced SMG (.40). Same as the current SMG-5, except uses .40 instead of 9mm.
M249 (5.56). Same as the M60, except uses 5.56 instead of 7.62.
Then we'd split the Pistol and SMG skills in Agility (similar to how Club and Sledge have separate perks).
Overall, that's15 16 ammo types compared to the current 22.
And that's 27 ranged weapons, compared to the current 22 or 23.
I think it'd bring more variety to the gameplay, more smooth progression, and more cohesion to the current ranged weapon lineup.
EDIT: I forgot to include Breaching Slugs.
Currently, we've got a few tier guns.
Pipe (t0?): Pistol (9mm), Shotgun (any?), Machinegun (7.62), Rifle (7.62).
Iron? (t1?): Pistol (9mm), Double-barrel shotgun (any?), Ak47 (7.62), Hunting Rifle (7.62).
T2?: Magnum revolver (.44), Pump shotgun (any?), Tac (7.62), Lever-action rifle (7.62).
T3?: SMG (9mm), Desert Vulture (.44), Auto shotgun (any?), M60 (7.62), Sniper (7.62).
Currently the situation we have with ammo is, the "basic" ammo drops, then the next type replaces it in loot, and for most guns the advanced ammo replaced that in loot. So you'll find Buckshot, basic 9mm, basic 7.62, maybe basic .44. Then it'll be AP Slugs, red-tip (hollow-point/hi-power) 9mm, red-tip 7.62, red-tip .44. Then it'll be black-tip 9mm ("AP", aka armour-piercing), black-tip 7.62, black-tip .44. I don't think breaching slugs are treated the same way, because I'm flooded with black-tip ammo and never see any breaching slugs in loot.
I'll also add that, for bows and crossbows, we have:
Primitive Bow,
Wooden Bow / Iron Crossbow,
Compound Bow / Compound Crossbow.
And they use:
Stone arrows / stone bolts,
Iron arrows / iron bolts,
Steel arrows / steel bolts,
Explosive arrows / explosive bolts.
They both also have flaming arrows / flaming bolts, which don't fit into the ammo progression (I think they're around iron arrow/bolt level in damage? not sure).
So we've currently got, by my count, 17 guns and 5 "bows", with 12 firearm ammo types and 10 archery ammo types.
The current issues I see with this setup come down to 2 main categories:
1) ammo types
2) overlapping weapon categories
Firstly, 7DTD has a big issue with firearm overlap. The pistol skill is also the submachinegun skill, and uses the same ammo. The rifle and machinegun skills are separate, but use the same exact ammo. And .44 is a whole subcategory of pistols and has their own dedicated ammo.
So, how would I re-divide things:
1. Arrows (bows) and bolts (crossbows) should be the same item. No, I don't care about immersion in that, just make them the same thing.
Stone arrows & bolts, iron arrows & bolts, steel arrows & bolts, explosive arrows & bolts.
That cuts 10 ammo types down to 4. Flaming arrows and flaming bolts were never useful for anything anyway.
2. Add in .32 ACP as an ammo type.
3. Add in .40 ACP as an ammo type.
4. Add in 5.56 NATO as an ammo type.
Currently, when given the choice for pipe bundles, the pipe machinegun is just the strongest by a fair margin. So I'd like to start by addressing that by adjusting the ammo tiers, and of course making the pipe machinegun use 5.56.
New lowest-tier ammo types:
.32 (most common)
Buckshot
9mm
7.62 basic
Stone arrows & bolts
.44 basic
Mid-tier ammo:
Buckshot
9mm
7.62 basic
Iron arrows & bolts
5.56 basic
.44 basic
High-tier ammo:
AP Slugs
.40
7.62 AP
Steel arrows & bolts
5.56 basic
.44 AP
End-tier ammo:
AP Slugs
Breaching Slugs
.40
7.62 AP
Explosive arrows & bolts
5.56 AP
.44 AP
This gives us the ammo line-up of:
.32 ACP, an early-game ammo used for 2 pistols and 1 SMG.
Buckshot, early-mid game shotgun ammo.
9mm, mid-game ammo used for 1 pistol and 1 SMG.
7.62 (basic), early-mid ammo used exclusively for rifles.
.44 (basic), ammo used for 1 rifle and 2 pistols.
Stone arrows & bolts, early-game bow & crossbow ammo.
5.56 (basic), mid-game ammo used for machineguns (assault rifles).
Iron arrows & bolts, mid-game bow & crossbow ammo.
AP Slugs, mid-late game shotgun ammo.
.40, end-game ammo used for 1 pistol and 1 SMG.
7.62 AP, mid-late ammo used exclusively for rifles.
.44 AP, mid-late ammo used for 1 rifle and 2 pistols.
Steel arrows & bolts, mid-late-game bow & crossbow ammo.
Edit: Breaching Slugs, end-game shotgun ammo for breaking doors and chests.
5.56 AP, end-game machinegun (assault rifle) ammo.
Explosive arrows & bolts, end-game bow & crossbow ammo.
Edit: It's 12 firearm ammo types, same as it is currently.
The weapons... Starting with T0 "pipe tier"/"stone tier":
Pipe Pistol (.32).
Pipe Rifle (7.62).
Pipe Shotgun (any shotgun ammo).
Pipe submachinegun (9mm).
Pipe machinegun (5.56).
Pipe Baton (I guess I'll include this here, just because it's in the pipe bundle).
Primitive bow.
The idea here is to give players a meaningful choice. If they choose the pipe pistol, which uses .32, they're more likely to have access to .32 ammo from early loot, quest rewards, and perhaps to purchase from the trader. It's a weaker, but more sustainable option, than pipe submachinegun or pipe machinegun.
Whereas the pipe submachinegun and pipe machinegun use ammo that might be more difficult to obtain early, but they made for better "panic weapons" (if a zombie dog catches you by surprise). And if you do get the ammo to feed them, they're stronger weapons for their tier.
Pipe rifle and pipe shotgun, on the other hand, use ammo that their class of guns uses the whole game long. So you're more likely to get a slow and steady trickle of that ammo, and instead you're limited by the pipe gun's magazine capacity of 1, and slow reload.
Tier-1:
Compact Pistol (.32). This makes the most sense to me as a "purse pistol", or even a "toilet pistol". It's an upgrade over the pipe pistol, and uses early-game ammo.
Hunting Rifle (7.62, same as it currently is).
Double-barrel shotgun (any shotgun ammo, same as it currently is).
(no submachinegun or machineguns in this tier, to balance their power)
Wooden Bow, Iron Crossbow.
Tier-2:
Pistol (9mm). Same as the current Pistol, but maybe stronger.
Lever-Action Rifle (.44). Allows rifle-users to start using two ammo types, 7.62 and .44.
Compact SMG (.32). This gives players a method of spending the .32 ammo they're getting, while also letting them have the pipe submachinegun to spend their 9mm ammo.
AK (5.56). Same as the current AK-47, but using 5.56 instead of 7.62.
Compound Bow, Compound Crossbow.
Tier-2.5:
Revolver (.44). Same as the current .44 magnum revolver.
Pump Shotgun (any shotgun ammo, same as it currently is).
Police SMG (9mm). Weaker version of the current SMG-5.
Tactical Assault Rifle (5.56). Same as the current Tac. Don't think it deserves to be a full tier higher than the AK.
Tier-3:
Advanced Pistol (.40). Basically a better version of the Pistol to compete with other end-game guns.
Desert Vulture (.44). Same as the current Desert Vulture.
Sniper (7.62). Same as the current Sniper.
Auto Shotgun (any shotgun ammo). Same as the current auto shotty.
Advanced SMG (.40). Same as the current SMG-5, except uses .40 instead of 9mm.
M249 (5.56). Same as the M60, except uses 5.56 instead of 7.62.
Then we'd split the Pistol and SMG skills in Agility (similar to how Club and Sledge have separate perks).
Overall, that's
And that's 27 ranged weapons, compared to the current 22 or 23.
I think it'd bring more variety to the gameplay, more smooth progression, and more cohesion to the current ranged weapon lineup.
EDIT: I forgot to include Breaching Slugs.
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