Simple, Tangible but game changing horde night rework

[LuvShiramine]

hello and thank you to whoever is taking their time to read this idea pitch.

This idea is coming from someone who has be playing since early 2017, I've played pc and console as well.

The reason I'm making this pitch is because of my own as well as many players feed back on ai, i made a few posts asking for:
1:a poll on your favorite alpha, #1 was A21(107 Votes) #2 was A20(40Votes) and #3 was A16 (38Votes) with more smaller numbers on other alphas
2: the players honest opinions on the old alpha 16 ai.

below i will paste a few other peoples responses NOT mine.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Honestly if they somehow combine the old and the new one it would be the best.
 Maybe play with the rules of rage mode and how it works (as it is essentially what the old one was).
 Or have some zombies be always in rage mode around the player on horde night, while others are more intelligent.
 Kind of like fresh infected still have some intelligence left,
 while those infected for longer time were striped from any intelligence whatsoever and only their rage and hunger control them.

I hate the PHD zombies we have now. It's so boring.
 The old style of them spawning and running forward was way more engaging.
 You had to be alert all around, not just at your funnel.

I also can't stand the new AI. It takes away from the unpredictability to the point where the game rarely even makes me jump anymore.
 Never found it scary exactly but it used to catch me off guard a lot more.
Has anyone managed to mod it somehow to bring the 16.4 AI rules back to the newer alphas? I heard it's impossible but @%$# off.

I would love a combo of both.
 Some act in an optimal manner like civil engineers and some wander about wrecking @%$#. Best of both worlds.

I'm missing the offguard jump scares...holes everywhere in my start base haha... 
They should revert it or someone should mod it :/ Its so booring atm and you cant make it rly hard cuz they just find they own way to the same exact points every night.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So from that limited data we have here, players on average dont enjoy the new zombies and how they function before we go on how to fix it 
here are some of MY reasons why it should be changed.

It encourages boring gameplay no matter what kind of base, play style you chose.

The funneling they do punishes new players and that's a big no no and its frustrating
 having all of the zombies pour in from 1 mistake in your build it feels punishing as hell and confusing when you're new.

 it also ruins the hell out of the creativity of base building in some circumstances.

Once you learn the basic mechanics of the zombies in horde night it's kind of boring,
 and not from a "sweaty" player perspective, it ends up being "that's all they're gonna do ???" They funnel and die funnel and die.

even when you don't specifically make a funnel they manage to funnel themselves every time through, guess what, the least path of resistance / the best way to get to you 
thanks to the engineer zombies introduced in alpha 17. i love the improved pathing made in the newer versions and mechanics like the head look, crawling and stumbling over stuff to get to the player
but the current zombie ai we have is not fun to play as, as the alpha 16 zombies, but we can have both to have an even more creative engaging gameplay loop

below is how i think we can achieve this with in game mechanics that make sense and fit the 7 days to die theme

How do we fix it ??

Some people suggested that we should have something like the virals from dying light,
 freshly infected zombies that have intelligence and are feral and have that perfect pathing straight to you (what we have right now)
 maybe make their eyes a different color, red would be good and scary too they could have additional movement speed as well.

And along with that we should have zombie that are regular zombies that beat down your spike walls, walls and supports to you bases...
 they know you're there... they don't know to get to you.. but they're hungryyyy. This should in theory add depth to base building and shake up gameplay by a large margin, also meaning.
 Every horde night will be different in some way they will attack all parts of your base focus some the next night or evenly spread out on everything another, also adding lots of replay ability with the OTHER feature below

Make a lot of optimizations to the zombie ai and game so we can have bigger hordes, if you've noticed when you kite 40-60 zombies alot of them get stuck and go into idle and lose you (even when feral) I think this is due to game limitations and I'd love to see this improved over the years, if l4d2 can spawn in upwards of 50 zombies plus regular idle ones around the map that seamlessly path to you I think 7 days can as well i can see this being a end game only thing by day 30 ish it would go over that 64 count limit it would be really fun to play against The walking dead type hordes as a way to add an end game.

Im not horribly experienced in coding or game making but a way you could try to fit this is with an ai "hive mind" system, if a lot of zombies have the same objective i.e.: to break blocks chase the player etc. zombies the the area will collectively combine their ai to prevent the idle zombies and maybe even machine lag     in *theory*  

This would take some balancing if they chose to increase sleepers biome patrollers, wandering hordes, along with more bloom moon enemies, health would be fine to adjust.

I apologize for any spelling, grammatical errors, but i'd love to hear what the team thinks of this pitch of a horde night rework/ ai rework through an email, lots of people did infact seem to take a liking to it, so hopefully you aswell.

my email is [email protected]

 

[meganoth]

I had a very different experience with the base building part. I started having fun building bases in A17. Before that, in A15 and A16 there was no use building anything but a boring big massive block. After that I could build narrow corridor bases, elevated path way bases, bases with variable path ways through bridges or doors, pit trap bases, and lots of combinations of those. None of this was really possible with A16s AI.

 

[Jugginator]

Bloodmoons may receive some touching as a gold pass, certainly. The main thing is the nature of this game (completely moldable/diggable terrain, thousands of voxel shapes in blocks, etc.) really throws a lot of things out the window. Personally, and before I came onto the team, A16 and previous I built a few bases but I eventually stopped because that AI at the time challenged me to build a base that didn't break the AI or make it boring (RIP if you wanted to stand on elevated bars, spin.exe would start). The main goal is to let players be creative in base building/defenses but still challenged to defend it. It's a rough thing to balance right (don't forget the more complicated the AI is, the more CPU intensive it is, we can't limit the game to users that have $500+ CPU's). Just wanted to bring some things into perspective . We're always listening to player opinions/feedback.

 

[LuvShiramine]

Bloodmoons may receive some touching as a gold pass, certainly. (don't forget the more complicated the AI is, the more CPU intensive it is, we can't limit the game to users that have $500+ CPU's). Just wanted to bring some things into perspective . We're always listening to player opinions/feedback. 

Honestly that's pretty nice to hear I'm glad the mechanics will be polished and improved especially as it seems to be an overlooked feature that deserves it.

More over,  when I said "hive mind" I meant it as combining multiple zombies as 1 collective so to hopefully reduce the lag of larger hordes, such as "follow the leader" in a sense, I can understand if having alot of different pathings and zombies types could lag a bit,  hopefully over the years you guys can effectively continue to optimize and innovate. 

Do you guys have any early renditions if any at all of any polishing/reworks/changes and or mechanics of blood moons in the future ? 

 

[Vaeliorin]

I had a very different experience with the base building part. I started having fun building bases in A17. Before that, in A15 and A16 there was no use building anything but a boring big massive block. After that I could build narrow corridor bases, elevated path way bases, bases with variable path ways through bridges or doors, pit trap bases, and lots of combinations of those. None of this was really possible with A16s AI.

I had the opposite experience.  In A16 I'd try all different kinds of base designs to see if they work, trying to get the zombies to behave how I wanted.  Since A17, I know how they'll work, and they all end up basically the same, funneling the zombies into an intended killzone.

Where there problems with the A16 AI?  Of course there were.  Building a stilt base or an underground base would completely break the zombie AI.  I'd have preferred an update that gave them vertical awareness but didn't make them brilliant structural engineers who always go to the weakest point.

 

[LuvShiramine]

Since A17, I know how they'll work, and they all end up basically the same, funneling the zombies into an intended killzone.

  I'd have preferred an update that gave them vertical awareness but didn't make them brilliant structural engineers who always go to the weakest point.

This post is exactly how I feel about the current zombies, just feels samey no matter what you do, not engaging, and when you're one of those people who love difficult experiences with high block damage max count on insane, it still isn't that difficult.

I want blood moons to be dread as "is this the day my base will fall?" Where you're actually encouraged to upgrade and prepare that's a really fun aspect of the base, and when you do fail it's "how can I do better and improve?" It's a very underutilized aspect I think the devs need to lean into 

 

[meganoth]

I had the opposite experience.  In A16 I'd try all different kinds of base designs to see if they work, trying to get the zombies to behave how I wanted.  Since A17, I know how they'll work, and they all end up basically the same, funneling the zombies into an intended killzone.

Where there problems with the A16 AI?  Of course there were.  Building a stilt base or an underground base would completely break the zombie AI.  I'd have preferred an update that gave them vertical awareness but didn't make them brilliant structural engineers who always go to the weakest point.

Not much can help once you tried out all base designs and know everything about the zombie behaviour and their limits. A game can't help getting very familiar once you play it for hundreds of hours.

This post is exactly how I feel about the current zombies, just feels samey no matter what you do, not engaging, and when you're one of those people who love difficult experiences with high block damage max count on insane, it still isn't that difficult.

I want blood moons to be dread as "is this the day my base will fall?" Where you're actually encouraged to upgrade and prepare that's a really fun aspect of the base, and when you do fail it's "how can I do better and improve?" It's a very underutilized aspect I think the devs need to lean into 

Partly that is a problem of TFP making the game accessible to beginners and (at least until now) not balancing the higher difficulties. Since zombie behaviour is moddable as well in limits, someone will probably make a mod for that or you will find it in one of the overhauls. A problem for example is that you have practically endless ammo (because the game is sandboxy but also because of the balancing).  And TFP balances it so you are supposed to be OP at the end of progression (which is easily rushable with the help of the trader).

And nothing can help someone if he checks out the best base designs on the internet and rebuilds them because those specifically exploit everything the game has to offer. That is one reason why I never watch youtubers and hate that a friend does and often employs that knowledge making the end bases of our group snoozefests as well. That doesn't happen in my single player games where I try to make every design unique by using a POI as raw frame for a base. I sometimes get overrun because some construct fails, with that in mind I often build with backup positions and I do need them. But I have fun and I couldn't even set the zombies on high block damage or I would be overrun much too often.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Not much can help once you tried out all base designs and know everything about the zombie behaviour and their limits. A game can't help getting very familiar once you play it for hundreds of hours.

I had hundreds of hours in A16.4, and I only once had a (final) base that functioned how I wanted (my starter bases all functioned, but they were all basically the same, just something to get me through the first few horde nights.)  All the dozens of others failed in some way (not that they were breached as I tend to overbuild things, just that they didn't function how I wanted.)

Only once had a base fail after A17, and that was because I wasn't aware they changed the distance that zombies would path, so they all ended up attacking the rear of my base instead of pathing around to the front.

The point is, zombie behavior was only exploitable with bases that weren't at ground level in A16.4 (because it was basically just run straight toward you, you could even get them to throw themselves off massive drops.  In fact, it was a bit of challenge to keep them from doing so, requiring something to slow them down enough that they'd recalculate their pathing, which took a while). If all they'd done to the AI was make them aware of height/added rage mode if they couldn't reach the player vertically and fixed the spinning in place bug, I think the zombie AI would be much more fun than it currently is. 

At this point, I'm fairly certain that I could make an all wooden base that could survive basically any horde night, and that makes horde night kinda pointless, in my view.

 

[meganoth]

I had hundreds of hours in A16.4, and I only once had a (final) base that functioned how I wanted (my starter bases all functioned, but they were all basically the same, just something to get me through the first few horde nights.)  All the dozens of others failed in some way (not that they were breached as I tend to overbuild things, just that they didn't function how I wanted.)

Only once had a base fail after A17, and that was because I wasn't aware they changed the distance that zombies would path, so they all ended up attacking the rear of my base instead of pathing around to the front.

The point is, zombie behavior was only exploitable with bases that weren't at ground level in A16.4 (because it was basically just run straight toward you, you could even get them to throw themselves off massive drops.  In fact, it was a bit of challenge to keep them from doing so, requiring something to slow them down enough that they'd recalculate their pathing, which took a while). If all they'd done to the AI was make them aware of height/added rage mode if they couldn't reach the player vertically and fixed the spinning in place bug, I think the zombie AI would be much more fun than it currently is. 

At this point, I'm fairly certain that I could make an all wooden base that could survive basically any horde night, and that makes horde night kinda pointless, in my view.

But a different point is that this is also a tower defense game and people who want to play this also as a tower defense game* instead of simply as a shooter want "bases that function how someone wants", to use your very apt words. That means that traps should be effective and that one can lead zombies into the traps one tries to build.

If you are so good that you can survive any horde night in a wooden base then you use too many tricks or exploits you found out or found on the internet. Seems you would get more fun out of the game if you just didn't use some of them. Apart from block damage there really is no difficulty setting for the builder part and I imagine it would be difficult making one. The reality is that the building part has to be still easy enough so beginners can succeed and that means that resourceful veterans or people who look up bases on the internet won't get their cake.

(*In my book a game where you just stand atop or inside a big cube of concrete and shoot everything down is not a tower defense game. That's a shooter with a defense mission.)

 

[Vaeliorin]

But a different point is that this is also a tower defense game and people who want to play this also as a tower defense game* instead of simply as a shooter want "bases that function how someone wants", to use your very apt words. That means that traps should be effective and that one can lead zombies into the traps one tries to build.

If you are so good that you can survive any horde night in a wooden base then you use too many tricks or exploits you found out or found on the internet. Seems you would get more fun out of the game if you just didn't use some of them. Apart from block damage there really is no difficulty setting for the builder part and I imagine it would be difficult making one. The reality is that the building part has to be still easy enough so beginners can succeed and that means that resourceful veterans or people who look up bases on the internet won't get their cake.

(*In my book a game where you just stand atop or inside a big cube of concrete and shoot everything down is not a tower defense game. That's a shooter with a defense mission.)

Sure, and the tower defense is the primary reason I bought the game.  I'd been following the game for years, and thought that if they ever added mechanical traps I'd buy it.  They did, and I did.  I actually hate first person shooters.  But I'd like to have to make an effort to set up my killbox, instead of it being basically effortless.  I want to be able to try different things without knowing that they'll work.  That's the real killer to me, that the AI is so predictable I don't even have to test a base design to know if it will work.

As for being able to survive any horde night in a wooden base, I'm not saying that's a base I would or do use, I'm just saying I could build a base to do it (knowing how to avoid rage mode and that there are blocks zombies will try and walk across that they just fall through.)

And I'd certainly agree with your last point about a cube not being tower defense.

 

[zztong]

Honestly if they somehow combine the old and the new one it would be the best.
 Maybe play with the rules of rage mode and how it works (as it is essentially what the old one was).
 Or have some zombies be always in rage mode around the player on horde night, while others are more intelligent.
 Kind of like fresh infected still have some intelligence left,
 while those infected for longer time were striped from any intelligence whatsoever and only their rage and hunger control them.

I don't think I ever meaningfully experienced the "old" one so it isn't clear to me what feature it might have had that is appealing. Are you suggesting they didn't take a "shortest path" (including block damage) approach? Would it be enough to have some percentage of the zombies in a horde take a "shortest path" without block damage approach?

Rage mode variations would seem to be a possibility. For instance, maybe:

• A chance a zombie who enters rage mode marks a block for all zombies within 8 blocks to focus on until destroyed.
  
• A chance a Demolisher might decide to blow themselves up next to a block at ground level underneath (or as close to underneath) the player.
  
• A chance that Biker zombies might throw an adjacent zombie up to some surface near the player (within some range).
  

Something I don't think the AI does is keep track of where zombies are dying. Riffing on your "some zombies have some intelligence left" thought, I wonder if a "Mastermind" zombie might eventually show up, stay away from the player, but designate blocks to be attacked by the other zombies. Maybe the zombies get stronger when one of them is around, giving the players a reason to leave the base and go get the Mastermind?

Maybe Screamers during hordes has some effect on the zombies?

Somethings I think would be unpopular would be:

• Zombies who weren't interested in the player, but were interested in destroying forges, workbenches, chemistry sets, cement mixers, and dew collectors. Some players might merge their home base with their horde base, but others would probably just build a horde base far away from home such that the home base wasn't even loaded into the game.
  
• Zombies that attempted to tunnel under the player and mess with the horde base's structural integrity.
  
• Demolishers throwing explosives.
  

 

[meganoth]

Sure, and the tower defense is the primary reason I bought the game.  I'd been following the game for years, and thought that if they ever added mechanical traps I'd buy it.  They did, and I did.  I actually hate first person shooters.  But I'd like to have to make an effort to set up my killbox, instead of it being basically effortless.  I want to be able to try different things without knowing that they'll work.  That's the real killer to me, that the AI is so predictable I don't even have to test a base design to know if it will work.

Ok. As I said, I often use existing almost random POIs that I try to remodel as trap dungeon and at least I can't avoid a certain failure chance. My last effort for example got me killed twice: One time a buddy added some blocks that helped the zombies break through at an unexpected place, and the other occurrence was my own fault. And that was without increasing block damage of zombies.

As for being able to survive any horde night in a wooden base, I'm not saying that's a base I would or do use, I'm just saying I could build a base to do it (knowing how to avoid rage mode and that there are blocks zombies will try and walk across that they just fall through.)

Exactly that is what I was talking about: Simply don't use those blocks where zombies will try and fall. I never use those and they are one big reason that makes the bases my friend builds so easy and boring. If zombies fall in my base it is only because of a push turret and that is strong enough but not too strong since it will get damaged and eventually fail.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Ok. As I said, I often use existing almost random POIs that I try to remodel as trap dungeon and at least I can't avoid a certain failure chance. My last effort for example got me killed twice: One time a buddy added some blocks that helped the zombies break through at an unexpected place, and the other occurrence was my own fault. And that was without increasing block damage of zombies.

Exactly that is what I was talking about: Simply don't use those blocks where zombies will try and fall. I never use those and they are one big reason that makes the bases my friend builds so easy and boring. If zombies fall in my base it is only because of a push turret and that is strong enough but not too strong since it will get damaged and eventually fail.

I've used random POIs as starter bases, but since I primarily enjoy building, using one as a permanent base wouldn't be that fun for me unless I basically ripped it apart and completely rebuilt it.  That said, while I do occasionally get unsuspected blocks broken doing things like that, they're never anything critical.  All you have to do is block off the top of a staircase, and the zombies are basically done for, assuming they have no other way to get to you.

As for not using blocks that create falls, I usually avoid them.  Pretty much the only time I use them is when I want to create a zombie blender where they fall through a dozen or so blade traps after I knock them off/ragdoll them.  I could theoretically have more challenge by doing a base with no traps, but then that's not really tower defense any longer either, is it?

I want bases that will fail.  But I want it to be because my design didn't work, not because I built it to fail.

 

[LuvShiramine]

I don't think I ever meaningfully experienced the "old" one so it isn't clear to me what feature it might have had that is appealing. Are you suggesting they didn't take a "shortest path" (including block damage) approach? Would it be enough to have some percentage of the zombies in a horde take a "shortest path" without block damage approach?

Rage mode variations would seem to be a possibility. For instance, maybe:

• A chance a zombie who enters rage mode marks a block for all zombies within 8 blocks to focus on until destroyed.
  
• A chance a Demolisher might decide to blow themselves up next to a block at ground level underneath (or as close to underneath) the player.
  
• A chance that Biker zombies might throw an adjacent zombie up to some surface near the player (within some range).
  

Something I don't think the AI does is keep track of where zombies are dying. Riffing on your "some zombies have some intelligence left" thought, I wonder if a "Mastermind" zombie might eventually show up, stay away from the player, but designate blocks to be attacked by the other zombies. Maybe the zombies get stronger when one of them is around, giving the players a reason to leave the base and go get the Mastermind?

Maybe Screamers during hordes has some effect on the zombies?

Somethings I think would be unpopular would be:

• Zombies who weren't interested in the player, but were interested in destroying forges, workbenches, chemistry sets, cement mixers, and dew collectors. Some players might merge their home base with their horde base, but others would probably just build a horde base far away from home such that the home base wasn't even loaded into the game.
  
• Zombies that attempted to tunnel under the player and mess with the horde base's structural integrity.
  
• Demolishers throwing explosives.
  

So, the problem with adding random mechanics like that at all is,

for 1 you don't want to over convolute stuff.

adding a bunch or gimmicky mechanics on stuff makes the game less immersive as it gets more goofy.

for example the mastermind idea the greying the line with realistic and sci-fi game stuff, not gimmicky just goofy and it doesn't fit the games theme.

another example is if you've ever played dead by daylight, the player base has an issue with getting targeted when getting off of the meat hooks the killer puts you on because that player is vulnerable, so the devs added a base kit mechanic to when you come off of these hooks you get a bit faster and you can endure 1 hit for 7 the next 7 seconds.... like you can make an argument for realism of "adrenaline fueled" ... yet again gimmicky and odd... but again there's ANOTHER related to this.

the player base also has an issue with the killer "camping" the hooked survivor or puppy guarding them, because you need help from a teammate to get off of it or you eventually die... so what the devs did is if the killer is near the hook long enough the survivor can just... pop off of it... like that's the definition of gimmicky random mechanic that doesn't even remotely make sense, like why wouldn't they just do that all the time? but enough of that.


A chance a zombie who enters rage mode marks a block for all zombies within 8 blocks to focus on until destroyed.
^^^^^^^ 
a way to make this fit the game theme and stay in realism would be, make a zombie that pukes all over blocks and those get weakened and take more damage, and zombies will target those if within a certain range and not occupied, similar to the boomer from left for dead (def inspired to be the cop we have in game) ... actually now that im writing this why doesn't the cop have 2 pukes ? one is green yellow which is for damaging the player, and a red one that smears on blocks ???? 
 

also what i meant by old system is, they were random, zombies would attack @%$# break stairs walls, some would climb to you if they saw you, like every night you would have a different siege on your base in some way it was really fun guessing and reacting to the randomness... the devs should lean into that in a few ways: 

1 zombies come from all directions and stay on their sides and attack many angles of your base 

2 have a mix of all zombies (after awhile its all ferals and rads) and because of that they should make every zombie unique, females move quicker toughs do more block damage ect ect, add more specials, that us the WHOLE reason l4d and its franchise was so popular is the specials were so fun in the game play loop playing against. 

3, lean into zombies being different, some break stuff but won't hesitate to barrel at you if they see the chance, some bang on your front door because they know better, vultures and spiders on your ceiling ect ect yet again 

because the biggest problem with 7 days in general for me is that horde nights genuinely feel the same every night of every play through, once i get a base down and play with it once or twice, i know what the zombies are going to do every horde night from now on, not counting random spawning directions which could cause oddities, but isn't leaned into enough like i said, and also specials like spiders and vultures and cops blowing @%$# and demos tanking @%$#, like you see how just 2 specials changes that ?? (spiders dont really do anything vultures eh ) it changes how you play and how you defend so quick. 
 

Ok. As I said, I often use existing almost random POIs that I try to remodel as trap dungeon and at least I can't avoid a certain failure chance. My last effort for example got me killed twice: One time a buddy added some blocks that helped the zombies break through at an unexpected place, and the other occurrence was my own fault. And that was without increasing block damage of zombies.

Exactly that is what I was talking about: Simply don't use those blocks where zombies will try and fall. I never use those and they are one big reason that makes the bases my friend builds so easy and boring. If zombies fall in my base it is only because of a push turret and that is strong enough but not too strong since it will get damaged and eventually fail.

you'll eventually find that even when you do, do this the problem still stands, let me quote a different reply i had  

[SIZE=14.6px]because the biggest problem with 7 days in general for me is that horde nights genuinely feel the same every night of every play through, once i get a base down and play with it once or twice, i know what the zombies are going to do every horde night from now on, not counting random spawning directions which could cause oddities, but isn't leaned into enough like i said, and also specials like spiders and vultures and cops blowing @%$# and demos tanking @%$#, like you see how just 2 specials changes that ?? (spiders dont really do anything vultures eh ) it changes how you play and how you defend so quick. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6px]you know [/SIZE]what's[SIZE=14.6px] going to happen every time almost and thats what makes to seem so repetitive, no matter what base or poi you use, nothing changes between day 70 and 77 and so on, and not from a [/SIZE]difficulty[SIZE=14.6px] stand point once you get all the specials in play its the same, besides this night i had 2 demos and this night i had 3, when between that the regular zombies still do the same thing every night when you look past specials [/SIZE]

 

[LuvShiramine]

Not much can help once you tried out all base designs and know everything about the zombie behaviour and their limits. A game can't help getting very familiar once you play it for hundreds of hours.

Partly that is a problem of TFP making the game accessible to beginners and (at least until now) not balancing the higher difficulties. Since zombie behaviour is moddable as well in limits, someone will probably make a mod for that or you will find it in one of the overhauls. A problem for example is that you have practically endless ammo (because the game is sandboxy but also because of the balancing).  And TFP balances it so you are supposed to be OP at the end of progression (which is easily rushable with the help of the trader).

And nothing can help someone if he checks out the best base designs on the internet and rebuilds them because those specifically exploit everything the game has to offer. That is one reason why I never watch youtubers and hate that a friend does and often employs that knowledge making the end bases of our group snoozefests as well. That doesn't happen in my single player games where I try to make every design unique by using a POI as raw frame for a base. I sometimes get overrun because some construct fails, with that in mind I often build with backup positions and I do need them. But I have fun and I couldn't even set the zombies on high block damage or I would be overrun much too often.

balance plays a huge part in enjoyment for alot of gamers, i love games that stimulate my brain to try and improve on stuff because its hard, whether its efficient farming, resource gathering, mechanical skill, game sense, or iq, which 7 days has all. 

but my main gripe with modding stuff is, you shouldn't have to patch and fix everything you don't like the game should just be good as is.
you lose all the authenticity of playing 7 days when you do that, you download a few mods, revert a version, and change a bunch of settings you like and dislike, are you even playing 7 days to die anymore ? 

ill paint a picture for you, you tell your friends you made it to day 100 without dying, and then say this and that, and you have to explain that you have the mega super zombie overhaul, no (insert arbitrary skill issue mechanic here x3), your settings are cranked, and you have the "we fixed traders" mod,  and your playing on a version a year old because you didn't like how the zombies give you more boo boos now  i could go on but you get it.


and the last part is yes i get PvE games aren't supposed to be taken meta meta (most effective tactic available) 24/7, BUT similar to the arguments of "just don't do that" "i play like this instead and don't do that " you're ripping all of the creativity of that style and players should have the option, hell divers 2 for example, has 9 difficulties, and it doesn't just change damage and what not it changes how the game is played and adds straight up mechanics which is cool, similar to insane nightmare which we have., BUT it adds that option of playing for the challenge using the best tactics and using team work and playing that "meta" but having it be fair, and playing and winning because more satisfying because its so hard

you'll have stuff like:

patrols are now a thing
enemies gain new attacks
certain enemies now can spawn all the time, and if you scale up some more they become more common 

ambushes now spawn more enemies

outposts are bigger and have more defenses, and more stuff like jammers and turrets

like stuff like that is so cool and could also be leaned into, i feel like im a box of ideas because i think about what 7 days could be allll the time because i want to like it but certain aspects of the game are so good, the ideas are there but execution is off, if you get what i mean 

 

[meganoth]

ll paint a picture for you, you tell your friends you made it to day 100 without dying, and then say this and that, and you have to explain that you have the mega super zombie overhaul, no (insert arbitrary skill issue mechanic here x3), your settings are cranked, and you have the "we fixed traders" mod,  and your playing on a version a year old because you didn't like how the zombies give you more boo boos now  i could go on but you get it.

I don't get what you are trying to say here. I don't need to brag to friends that I made it to day 100 without dying because a) I am looong past the bragging age b) I generally die at least once in the first 20 days because I am far from a perfect player. A game where I would reach 100 days without dying would be a game set so easy it would bore me to death.

Consequently I don't have any problem installing a mod when it helps me having more fun in the game. We can protest that the game should do that in vanilla, but I am 80% certain that version 1.0, which is getting released in a few months, won't be such a version. I will have to fix the trader myself or live with games that have me perfectly equipped in less than 40 days.

.... hell divers 2 for example, has 9 difficulties, and it doesn't just change damage and what not it changes how the game is played ...

I already made the suggestion to the developers that the difficulty setting would need to reduce loot and trader rewards at higher difficulties as well. They seem to disagree.

But we are digressing from your initial pitch which was about making the zombies dumber. And I don't see what hell divers 2 brings to THAT argument .

 

[doughphunghus]

Just a thought: and i love "randomness" in my games so im biased. I want to die (sometimes) even if i play perfectly, as it feels more real. Thats why i only build in POIs and see how it goes (always badly!)

i think part of the argument is this: if all zombies behave/track you essentially the same, then you only have 1 type of defense to fight against. Now, there are demolishers and screamers, vultures (an animal though) etc so they are all not "the exact same" zombie clone (and therefore ultimately the same defense strategy every game) but the pathing is being argued to be essentially "too good" in that its using a basic strategy to get to you... so after a handful of games you learn the zeds "homing in to get you" strategy, and therefore kinda know how to defend against it rather easily, even with harder settings.

additionally: TFP seems to like the current zed fighting strategy/AI, preferring it over others they have made (like a16)

given this (and its stated sort of like this above) it would seem logical that if *most* zombies followed the current TFP zombie AI (they know where you are and hunt you) BUT a small fraction of them did not follow that same strategy (say: 10%), it would add a touch of randomness to the game. Your base might be "perfect" and maybe even AFK possible, but that 10% being "not following the default AI playbook" might be enough to ruin your perfect base. 
 

basically: every amount/layer/level of "randomness" in zed attack strategy is another amount/layer/level of base design and defense you have to account for, and to me this seems is the argument for having some zeds be "dumber": its that bit of "the unknown zed strategy" that makes it harder to design an impenetrable base. Of course, saying "a16 dumber" implies a lot of really dumb zeds (spinning, etc) but i feel the "desired zed attack strategy" when referring to a16 is mostly "they just can be anywhere, just hitting walls, eventually making holes" and this is a but terrifying if you dont know where all the zeds are (or did not design your base for being able to see everything/the walls/nooks/etc. and defend those positions while your traps/kill tunnel/zone catches most of them. Its actually kinda terrifying to be attacked by zeds and when going back to get ammo/food... you hear zeds in weird and unknown places...oh no, is a zed digging under my safe place? Is that 2 zeds.. oof, i didnt put a window there because.... my 1 strategy i had to defend against is the kill box 10 blocks away..arrrgggh! I cant fight these zeds right now!
 

another thing brought up was essentially "super smart" ones. Once again: a small percentage of them being spawned would probably be fun, because "you just don't know" whats going to happen (as an advanced played).  A new player likely wont be able to tell the difference if there were 1 zed strategy or 100 unique ones. Personally i like the spider/jumpers and wish they could jump really high... only sometimes. Just enough so i never know if any jumped over my walls..
 

personally i think "the less predictable *some* of the zeds are, the more fun the game gets. And sure: play the game long enough and you can probably figure out the zed strategies and work around it.... so.... why not add more (small percentages of) strategies/randomness as the game progresses? Like maybe under 4 blood moons: all zeds have todays AI, but then from  (and on) you throw in some "dumb" ones that simply do not walk to the kill box. Maybe they just dig/hit random things. Then, blood moon 15: a few super smart ones sometimes spawn that love going for doors or forges, etc. i think it would he hilarious to be fighting zeds and then "boom" your motorcycle/4x4 explodes because 1. You parked it underground, 2. A single (looks like any given normal zed) "destroys vehicles before attacking player" zed spawned and you ignored  it because you didn't know that was a thing (new olayer) or (advanced player) you stepped away from cautiously watching that area to fight some demolishers, had a drink, and kinda forgot about it.

anyway: i think? You can los the current zed AI to just be "block destroy" mode, and i hope with bandits we might get AI to put in zeds to be "super smart" (example: district zero overhaul already has the robots open unlocked doors, which is great as many POI doors are unlockable) so maybe with mods it will at least be possible to have many zed attack strategies that vanilla does not implement. Yea, it may be a mod, not vanilla. But i really wish in the end, TFP adds a bit more to the AI of the zeds, even if part of that is "putting some dumb ones in with the normals, and some smart ones" and theres just 3 strategies to defend against.

also: maybe the upcoming bandits are the answer? Like "blood moon yeah its a pain but my base is built for it" but pandits are a different strategy to fight against "not on blood moon" and different enough that any existing "normal zed" kill box/tunnel of the base is completely worthless for bandit attack (this 2 strategies to defend against)

 

[LuvShiramine]

I don't get what you are trying to say here. I don't need to brag to friends that I made it to day 100 without dying because a) I am looong past the bragging age b) I generally die at least once in the first 20 days because I am far from a perfect player. A game where I would reach 100 days without dying would be a game set so easy it would bore me to death.

Consequently I don't have any problem installing a mod when it helps me having more fun in the game. We can protest that the game should do that in vanilla, but I am 80% certain that version 1.0, which is getting released in a few months, won't be such a version. I will have to fix the trader myself or live with games that have me perfectly equipped in less than 40 days.

I already made the suggestion to the developers that the difficulty setting would need to reduce loot and trader rewards at higher difficulties as well. They seem to disagree.

But we are digressing from your initial pitch which was about making the zombies dumber. And I don't see what hell divers 2 brings to THAT argument .

I was making a point on how using your own metas and ideas is fun in a sandbox box obviously but you said that when you use the best stuff it gets boring correct ? Because the game isn't balanced for it, my point was that helldivers difficulty DOES which adds so many layers and depth in general to the people who love min maxing their own strategies and having fun that way.

It's best compared to new game plus in certain games, imagine if you've played through your favorite game five times and loved it but then you unlock a new game plus the story and the game is the same but it adds new mechanics and layers to think about as you're playing it again, keeping it fresh, fun and most importantly challenging. 

So imagine if 7 Days to die difficulty did something like that, added new mechanics changed up the core gameplay of a lot of stuff, there is so much you could do.

But back to your other point, you mentioned how eventually someone will mod in what you're looking for and while that might be true, alot of people would agree with me that having to handicap yourself by building in pois and installing mods and avoiding certain aspects, isn't the most enjoyable experience  and I'm not talking about just having a mod to have more fun that's perfectly a okay, but when it feels like more then just a qol and more of a necessity or can't live without, or the thing that you need to mod just feels bad to play with without the mod says alot.

And of course I understand that the strength of sandbox games is that you can play how you want and that's amazing, but so so many mechanics and things in 7 Days to die could be drastically improved with just a few changes, as an example of something that I personally don't care for but a lot of people do is that farming feels terrible to a lot of people in vanilla

 

[LuvShiramine]

Just a thought: and i love "randomness" in my games so im biased. I want to die (sometimes) even if i play perfectly, as it feels more real. Thats why i only build in POIs and see how it goes (always badly!)

i think part of the argument is this: if all zombies behave/track you essentially the same, then you only have 1 type of defense to fight against. Now, there are demolishers and screamers, vultures (an animal though) etc so they are all not "the exact same" zombie clone (and therefore ultimately the same defense strategy every game) but the pathing is being argued to be essentially "too good" in that its using a basic strategy to get to you... so after a handful of games you learn the zeds "homing in to get you" strategy, and therefore kinda know how to defend against it rather easily, even with harder settings.

additionally: TFP seems to like the current zed fighting strategy/AI, preferring it over others they have made (like a16)

given this (and its stated sort of like this above) it would seem logical that if *most* zombies followed the current TFP zombie AI (they know where you are and hunt you) BUT a small fraction of them did not follow that same strategy (say: 10%), it would add a touch of randomness to the game. Your base might be "perfect" and maybe even AFK possible, but that 10% being "not following the default AI playbook" might be enough to ruin your perfect base. 
 

basically: every amount/layer/level of "randomness" in zed attack strategy is another amount/layer/level of base design and defense you have to account for, and to me this seems is the argument for having some zeds be "dumber": its that bit of "the unknown zed strategy" that makes it harder to design an impenetrable base. Of course, saying "a16 dumber" implies a lot of really dumb zeds (spinning, etc) but i feel the "desired zed attack strategy" when referring to a16 is mostly "they just can be anywhere, just hitting walls, eventually making holes" and this is a but terrifying if you dont know where all the zeds are saying "a16 dumber" implies a lot of really dumb zeds (spinning, etc) while your traps/kill tunnel/zone catches most of them. Its actually kinda terrifying to be attacked by zeds and when going back to get ammo/food... you hear zeds in weird and unknown places...oh no, is a zed digging under my safe place? Is that 2 zeds.. oof, i didnt put a window there because.... my 1 strategy i had to defend against is the kill box 10 blocks away..arrrgggh! I cant fight these zeds right now!

another thing brought up was essentially "super smart" ones. Once again: a small percentage of them being spawned would probably be fun, because "you just don't know" whats going to happen (as an advanced played).  A new player likely wont be able to tell the difference if there were 1 zed strategy or 100 unique ones. Personally i like the spider/jumpers and wish they could jump really high... only sometimes. Just enough so i never know if any jumped over my walls..
 

personally i think "the less predictable *some* of the zeds are, the more fun the game gets. And sure: play the game long enough and you can probably figure out the zed strategies and work around it.... so.... why not add more (small percentages of) strategies/randomness as the game progresses? Like maybe under 4 blood moons: all zeds have todays AI, but then from  (and on) you throw in some "dumb" ones that simply do not walk to the kill box. Maybe they just dig/hit random things. Then, blood moon 15: a few super smart ones sometimes spawn that love going for doors or forges, etc. i think it would he hilarious to be fighting zeds and then "boom" your motorcycle/4x4 explodes because 1. You parked it underground, 2. A single (looks like any given normal zed) "destroys vehicles before attacking player" zed spawned and you ignored  it because you didn't know that was a thing (new olayer) or (advanced player) you stepped away from cautiously watching that area to fight some demolishers, had a drink, and kinda forgot about it.

anyway: i think? You can los the current zed AI to just be "block destroy" mode, and i hope with bandits we might get AI to put in zeds to be "super smart" (example: district zero overhaul already has the robots open unlocked doors, which is great as many POI doors are unlockable) so maybe with mods it will at least be possible to have many zed attack strategies that vanilla does not implement. Yea, it may be a mod, not vanilla. But i really wish in the end, TFP adds a bit more to the AI of the zeds, even if part of that is "putting some dumb ones in with the normals, and some smart ones" and theres just 3 strategies to defend against.

also: maybe the upcoming bandits are the answer? Like "blood moon yeah its a pain but my base is built for it" but pandits are a different strategy to fight against "not on blood moon" and different enough that any existing "normal zed" kill box/tunnel of the base is completely worthless for bandit attack (this 2 strategies to defend against)

my god i wish you were a dev, yes i completely agree with the randomness part, im sure alot of people don't want to die and just want to live forever, but if a game is just too easy and i have to handicap myself and TRY to die then i get bored, if a single player game/ PvE game gets you excited over achieving something or escaping a harsh situation, its doing something right, beating a souls boss, clutching up a tough scenario for your squad ect... IMO thats way better then being OP and just killing everything over and over again. 


additionally: TFP seems to like the current zed fighting strategy/AI, preferring it over others they have made (like a16) 

according to my albeit limited sample size, people don't enjoy the current zed ai, so maybe they should reconsider or compromise

7 days to approaching 1.0 and it will attract ALOT of attention, and  i hope and pray to god this gimmicky weird all knowing cheese ai doesn't turn off new players and gets improved to something else.... that and it could be so so much better there's no way they're going to settle for just this. obviously this whole thread is dedicated to this topic but yet again the current ai is pretty 1 dimensional and non interactive so enough said on that, additionally this thread is proof of the many ideas they could do, and a few i could def see in the game and fit the theme and overall gameplay.

"""BUT a small fraction of them did not follow that same strategy (say: 10%), it would add a touch of randomness to the game. Your base might be "perfect" and maybe even AFK possible, but that 10% being "not following the default AI playbook" might be enough to ruin your perfect base. """

this is perfect ^^^ 

TFP This is a happy medium and a plausible idea that would fit and isn't gimmicky this is a genuine take that if you're reading this i'd like to know some opinions vvvvvvv 

whether its a different ai on its own, or they spawn in a certain way as well, even if some ideas or mechanics in this thread, TFP wouldn't add this seems like something they would at least consider. i would also have that they have some slight visual indicator or something audibly  different about these zombies as to not have to be a weird confusing mechanic to new players, and def not something you have to look up, it should be obvious, "oh yeah this zombie is more lively and still has some human intelligence"   "this zombie seems slower and more stupid, i can tell its giving into its parasitic instincts now that its rotting" whether its an eye color change it makes weird sounds it should be apparent .


""""saying "a16 dumber" implies a lot of really dumb zeds (spinning, etc) """" obviously i didn't mean that lol, but i believe somewhere i said that alpha 16 ai mechanics and pathing, (not counting the bugs) with alpha 21 zombie mechanics such as crawling and climbing and head looking ect would be perfect.

additionally the chaos in having zombies just swarm everything, having to defend every corner of you base, from above your walls, protecting traps, main entrance, is so fun.

it also encourages people to try new bases and new strategies, that aren't always going to work the same way every time meaning that no base is truly "end game unkillable" 

and really makes the game play loop, of horde nights really interesting and replayable 





 

 

[meganoth]

Just a thought: and i love "randomness" in my games so im biased. I want to die (sometimes) even if i play perfectly, as it feels more real. Thats why i only build in POIs and see how it goes (always badly!)

i think part of the argument is this: if all zombies behave/track you essentially the same, then you only have 1 type of defense to fight against. Now, there are demolishers and screamers, vultures (an animal though) etc so they are all not "the exact same" zombie clone (and therefore ultimately the same defense strategy every game) but the pathing is being argued to be essentially "too good" in that its using a basic strategy to get to you... so after a handful of games you learn the zeds "homing in to get you" strategy, and therefore kinda know how to defend against it rather easily, even with harder settings.

additionally: TFP seems to like the current zed fighting strategy/AI, preferring it over others they have made (like a16)

given this (and its stated sort of like this above) it would seem logical that if *most* zombies followed the current TFP zombie AI (they know where you are and hunt you) BUT a small fraction of them did not follow that same strategy (say: 10%), it would add a touch of randomness to the game. Your base might be "perfect" and maybe even AFK possible, but that 10% being "not following the default AI playbook" might be enough to ruin your perfect base. 
 

basically: every amount/layer/level of "randomness" in zed attack strategy is another amount/layer/level of base design and defense you have to account for, and to me this seems is the argument for having some zeds be "dumber": its that bit of "the unknown zed strategy" that makes it harder to design an impenetrable base. Of course, saying "a16 dumber" implies a lot of really dumb zeds (spinning, etc) but i feel the "desired zed attack strategy" when referring to a16 is mostly "they just can be anywhere, just hitting walls, eventually making holes" and this is a but terrifying if you dont know where all the zeds are (or did not design your base for being able to see everything/the walls/nooks/etc. and defend those positions while your traps/kill tunnel/zone catches most of them. Its actually kinda terrifying to be attacked by zeds and when going back to get ammo/food... you hear zeds in weird and unknown places...oh no, is a zed digging under my safe place? Is that 2 zeds.. oof, i didnt put a window there because.... my 1 strategy i had to defend against is the kill box 10 blocks away..arrrgggh! I cant fight these zeds right now!
 

another thing brought up was essentially "super smart" ones. Once again: a small percentage of them being spawned would probably be fun, because "you just don't know" whats going to happen (as an advanced played).  A new player likely wont be able to tell the difference if there were 1 zed strategy or 100 unique ones. Personally i like the spider/jumpers and wish they could jump really high... only sometimes. Just enough so i never know if any jumped over my walls..
 

personally i think "the less predictable *some* of the zeds are, the more fun the game gets. And sure: play the game long enough and you can probably figure out the zed strategies and work around it.... so.... why not add more (small percentages of) strategies/randomness as the game progresses? Like maybe under 4 blood moons: all zeds have todays AI, but then from  (and on) you throw in some "dumb" ones that simply do not walk to the kill box. Maybe they just dig/hit random things. Then, blood moon 15: a few super smart ones sometimes spawn that love going for doors or forges, etc. i think it would he hilarious to be fighting zeds and then "boom" your motorcycle/4x4 explodes because 1. You parked it underground, 2. A single (looks like any given normal zed) "destroys vehicles before attacking player" zed spawned and you ignored  it because you didn't know that was a thing (new olayer) or (advanced player) you stepped away from cautiously watching that area to fight some demolishers, had a drink, and kinda forgot about it.

anyway: i think? You can los the current zed AI to just be "block destroy" mode, and i hope with bandits we might get AI to put in zeds to be "super smart" (example: district zero overhaul already has the robots open unlocked doors, which is great as many POI doors are unlockable) so maybe with mods it will at least be possible to have many zed attack strategies that vanilla does not implement. Yea, it may be a mod, not vanilla. But i really wish in the end, TFP adds a bit more to the AI of the zeds, even if part of that is "putting some dumb ones in with the normals, and some smart ones" and theres just 3 strategies to defend against.

also: maybe the upcoming bandits are the answer? Like "blood moon yeah its a pain but my base is built for it" but pandits are a different strategy to fight against "not on blood moon" and different enough that any existing "normal zed" kill box/tunnel of the base is completely worthless for bandit attack (this 2 strategies to defend against)

So you didn't notice that a percentage (10% might even be right) of all zombies already attack random parts of the base instead of following some weakest link point? So what you offer as the solution is already implemented and surprise, it doesn't magically make the game unpredictable.

You should replay A16 if you think the strategy the zombies used then was any less predictable than it is now. In A16 the zombies (when not running in circles) just ran straight at you. Which is in general as predictable as what most zombies do now and there are very easy strategies to defend against it, the only positive thing was that players had a bit more agency on the horde night as their position determined the exact point where zombies were attacking. But the drawback was that horde base building was boring and traps almost useless (except when you simply placed a field of spike traps all around the base).

I had no fun at all building horde bases in A16. It was a brainless task as there was no reason for elaborate designs, the best design was just a block with all sides equal.