POIs Flush With Surrounding Landscape

[InfiniteWarrior]

An awful lot of POIs are sticking up one block's height from the ground/surrounding landscape. I understand from community POI maker's tuts this is avoided by lowering the POI beneath ground level in the editor by that block height. So, I have to wonder why the professional game contains so many glaringly obvious...daises, essentially. Is a pass on all the POIs ground level on the roadmap?

 

[Riamus]

You would need to give an example of a specific POI and preferably a screenshot that shows how the elevations are around all sides of the POI.  From what I've seen, vanilla POI are level if the ground is flat, which means they are correctly designed.  However, if part of the terrain under the POI is higher, it can raise the entire POI by that amount, making a drop off on the edges that aren't as high.

 

[zztong]

An awful lot of POIs are sticking up one block's height from the ground/surrounding landscape. I understand from community POI maker's tuts this is avoided by lowering the POI beneath ground level in the editor by that block height. So, I have to wonder why the professional game contains so many glaringly obvious...daises, essentially. Is a pass on all the POIs ground level on the roadmap?

Huh? I don't understand what you mean. POIs correctly land at whatever you make the ground level to be.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Huh? I don't understand what you mean. POIs correctly land at whatever you make the ground level to be.

I know I'm not the only person ever to notice this and there are way too many in the base game, even situated on perfectly flat ground, to provide screenshots of all of them. I shouldn't have to provide an example. They are noticably raised from the surrounding landscape, falling off in a slope on all four perfectly perpendicular sides and it's the same POIs every map generation. I'm sure TFP know what I mean.

Here's an example of how it's "fixed" from YouTube: 

 

[GuardianReaper0]

Can you post a picture of the actual “problem”? 
 

Some areas are raised a little bit because it’s meant to be “foundation” which looks closer to realistic to me, but idk if that is what you are referring to because I don’t have a picture.

 

[Riamus]

I know I'm not the only person ever to notice this and there are way too many in the base game, even situated on perfectly flat ground, to provide screenshots of all of them. I shouldn't have to provide an example. They are noticably raised from the surrounding landscape, falling off in a slope on all four perfectly perpendicular sides and it's the same POIs every map generation. I'm sure TFP know what I mean.

Here's an example of how it's "fixed" from YouTube: 

No one asked you to give every example.  Just provide one.  If you aren't willing to do so, then why are you posting?  Without a screenshot, nothing will get fixed or changed because there's no way to know what you are talking about or if it's an actual error.

I have never seen a vanilla POI that isn't flush with the ground unless the ground isn't level under it and around it within a certain small range.  They will appear at whatever level the ground level is set to in the POI.  Certain POI are intended to be raised up, though.  Part of the POI will be lower, while the rest is higher.  I can think of one cafe that is like that... Bob's, maybe.  The parking area and POI are raised up, but that is by design.  That's of course a town POI, but it's an easy example.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

there's no way to know what you are talking about or if it's an actual error

It's not an error or a bug. It is precisely the issue that is referenced at the timestamped point in the YouTube tutorial video above. Too many POIs have not been made flush with the ground like that before publication and have the "step up" on all sides. TFP's POI artists should know what I'm talking about if no one else does.

What I'm not talking about, of course, are POIs, e.g. the small town diner and parking lot, that have a 3 or 4 block high graduated approach from the main road. Seriously, the affected POIs stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[Riamus]

It's not an error or a bug. It is precisely the issue that is referenced at the timestamped point in the YouTube tutorial video above. Too many POIs have not been made flush with the ground like that before publication and have the "step up" on all sides. TFP's POI artists should know what I'm talking about if no one else does.

What I'm not talking about, of course, are POIs, e.g. the small town diner and parking lot, that have a 3 or 4 block high graduated approach from the main road. Seriously, the affected POIs stick out like a sore thumb.

If it isn't at the right level, then yes, it is an error or bug.  If you are saying that you don't like that they have something intentionally raised up, then you're right, it's not an error or bug and unlikely to change because it's intentional.  Again, without a screenshot showing a POI that you feel is wrong, nothing will ever be done about it, which makes your post not very worthwhile.  If this happens "An awful lot", then it shouldn't be any effort at all to show a screenshot... one that clearly shows all the terrain around the POI at an angle that will let us see if it's related to terrain.  Multiple screenshots from different angles are also fine if one won't show everything well enough.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

If it isn't at the right level, then yes, it is an error or bug.  If you are saying that you don't like that they have something intentionally raised up, then you're right, it's not an error or bug and unlikely to change because it's intentional.  Again, without a screenshot showing a POI that you feel is wrong, nothing will ever be done about it, which makes your post not very worthwhile.  If this happens "An awful lot", then it shouldn't be any effort at all to show a screenshot... one that clearly shows all the terrain around the POI at an angle that will let us see if it's related to terrain.  Multiple screenshots from different angles are also fine if one won't show everything well enough.

I'll post a screenshot (or more) for you two the next time I run across some. But, no, if it isn't at the right level in the case in point, it's an oversight and neither an error nor a bug nor the intended design of the POI

I've noticed that most of the affected are older POIs probably created before the master POI artist(s) responsible for the newer ones was brought on board.

 

[zztong]

Here's an example of how it's "fixed" from YouTube: 

What the video is showing is normal POI development. That's just how you use the Prefab Editor. In the Prefab Editor you build above the ground level plane and when you're done you set the ground level to where it is supposed to be. I can assure you TFP and established community developers know how to do this correctly.

the small town diner and parking lot

I'd love to have an actual POI filename or even the localized name from the Danger Meter. I hate to trouble you for those details, but there can be more than one POI to meet that description and I'd rather not guess, but...

• diner_01 - The Greasy Spoon
  
• diner_02 - Bob's Cafe
  
• diner_03 - Del's Cafe
  
• diner_04 - D-ick's Diner (It's funny that the forum moderated that name.)
  
• diner_07 - Navezgane Falls Diner
  

(FYI, diner_05 and diner_06 do not exist.)

diner_01, diner_02, and diner_03 are all ground level POIs.

diner_04 is elevated on a foundation one block tall. You have to go up one block worth of steps to get to the ground floor.

diner_07 is a ground level truck stop.

• downtown_parking_lot - Dowtown Evacuation Point
  
• parking_lot_01 - Park-n-Pay
  
• parking_lot_02 - Mobile Field Hospital
  
• parking_lot_03 - ParKing Lot
  

All of those are at ground level.

Are you perhaps referring to POIs in a modlet somewhere? Are you perhaps using a world builder other than RWG?

I kind of wonder if you're just making an observation that many POIs have intentionally elevated lawns and/or foundations, such that the first floor of the POI is not at ground level. That is, that you would go up a block's worth of steps to get to the "ground" floor...?

If so, that is often intentional. By doing so, zombie volumes don't have to be at ground level so people walking by the POI do not trigger the placement of zombies, which can have a momentary performance hit, plus those zombies would be unavailable to the server until they timed out.

I'm just trying to understand your perspective. At first it seemed like you were reporting a bug and now I'm wondering if you're expressing an opinion on POI design and aesthetics. I'm all ears and anxious to learn.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I kind of wonder if you're just making an observation that many POIs have intentionally elevated lawns and/or foundations

Nope. As I said, I'll post a couple of screenshots for you of the older POIs I've seen that were not made flush before publication when next I run across them. Old timers are probably so used to them looking the way they do, they're just not immediately coming to mind. They're easier to spot in the snow biome if anyone cares to keep their own eyes peeled for an example.

What the video is showing is normal POI development.

I've specifically linked an example of precisely what I'm talking about and what it looks like and how it's avoided at a specific timestamp in the video. As I also said, it's generally older POIs in which this step was skipped whether through lack of experience that has since been overcome or perhaps due to more experienced POI artists having come on board since.

Of all the features of this game, the POIs are the one feature I can personally praise to the high heavens as they are voxel architecturally amazing. This simply detracts from that. If you guys think you're defending TFP's professionalism or something, it's not necessary. The game is a work in progress and there are probably more pressing things to consider, atm. That's why I asked (TFP) if a quality pass on the POIs is on the roadmap.

 

[stallionsden]

Nope. As I said, I'll post a couple of screenshots for you of the older POIs I've seen that were not made flush before publication when next I run across them. Old timers are probably so used to them looking the way they do, they're just not immediately coming to mind. They're easier to spot in the snow biome if anyone cares to keep their own eyes peeled for an example.

I've specifically linked an example of precisely what I'm talking about and what it looks like and how it's avoided at a specific timestamp in the video. As I also said, it's generally older POIs in which this step was skipped whether through lack of experience that has since been overcome or perhaps due to more experienced POI artists having come on board since.

Of all the features of this game, the POIs are the one feature I can personally praise to the high heavens as they are voxel architecturally amazing. This simply detracts from that. If you guys think you're defending TFP's professionalism or something, it's not necessary. The game is a work in progress and there are probably more pressing things to consider, atm. That's why I asked (TFP) if a quality pass on the POIs were on the roadmap.

There are def pois that are meant to be a block higher that was how they were made and designed but it def be interesting to see what you are talking bout in the coming screenshots

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Here you go:

 

 

[zztong]

Here you go:

Oh! In the wilderness. This isn't the POI's (or the POI designer's) doing.

The screenshot doesn't show the POI's localized name, but it looks like a cabin, so I'll look for it... Found it ... It is cabin_10. You can see (below) the ground level is appropriately set.

What you're pointing to is how RWG fits terrain in the wilderness around the POI. This is most pronounced when the terrain has a slope to it. This would likely need a code change in RWG to do a better job of smoothing between the POI's terrain and the world's terrain.

In settlements, it would be how the Tile is designed. Tiles usually feature flat terrain, but they don't have to.

 

[stallionsden]

Oh! In the wilderness. This isn't the POI's (or the POI designer's) doing.

The screenshot doesn't show the POI's localized name, but it looks like a cabin, so I'll look for it... Found it ... It is cabin_10. You can see (below) the ground level is appropriately set.

What you're pointing to is how RWG fits terrain in the wilderness around the POI. This is most pronounced when the terrain has a slope to it. This would likely need a code change in RWG to do a better job of smoothing between the POI's terrain and the world's terrain.

In settlements, it would be how the Tile is designed. Tiles usually feature flat terrain, but they don't have to.

View attachment 32272

Exactly .  The pois are flat level with the ground.  Whilst some work does need to done to rwg to fix some rwg abnormalities the pois themselves are great 

 

[GuardianReaper0]

Here you go:

 

View attachment 32269

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View attachment 32271

Thank you for the screenshots. The other guys already explained so I’ll skip that part.

I will note however I’d much rather it be raised a block like this than sitting “flush” as that could cause issues with buried doors and such.

 

[Riamus]

The screenshots helped explain the situation as it is different from how we all thought you meant.  This isn't a POI problem at all like they explained. 

In short, blocks can only be placed at exact 1m intervals but terrain can be at any level.  So, if you have terrain that is at 31.5m, the POI can be at either 31m or 32m, causing you to see the POI sitting a little higher that the terrain or a little lower than the terrain.  This is a limitation of how voxels work. 

The best they could do is to expand the transition area so that the slope is more gradual.  There are downsides to doing that, however.  The main one is getting terrain to "smooth" out in a way that looks good against other surrounding terrain and not like it is just flattened into a ramp.  That can be done, but isn't as simple as it sounds.

 

[zztong]

I will note however I’d much rather it be raised a block like this than sitting “flush” as that could cause issues with buried doors and such.

Right. If you smooth the POI's terrain down you risk exposing things underground. It would be pretty rare, but possible. A great example was KingGen, which had numerous challenges related to matching terrain to POIs and would sometimes expose basements to cliffs. You'd have to smooth the terrain up to match the POI.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I came across some of the POIs you guys were probably thinking of in town/cities in my screenshot hunt that were obviously raised intentionally (as there are steps and mailboxes and such at the one block lower level, if nothing else), but still thought...Why, God? Why? : ) They just look soooo unnatural and...well, stick out like a sore thumb. Are there not assets, e.g. snowdrifts, sanddrifts, brambles and bushes, etc. that can camoflauge those stark edges or is the ground "foundation" of the POI pretty much set in stone when it's defined? (Haven't spent any time in the editor yet myself.)

This is a problem in most games with building mechanics as far as I can tell: the base of assets will float above ground level at any slight variation of terrain. Most studios don't even try to do anything about it leaving it up to the building community to come up with aneurysm-inducing tricks and glitches to sink assets into the ground, etc. Don't get me started on how the C.A.M.P. module, pressure plate, catwalks and flame thrower of Fallout 76 are absolutely essential to build anything that looks even remotely natural, ntm going under the map. This is a slightly different scenario as it's the entire POI that is raised above ground level, but the graduating one block slope just doesn't seem to cut it.

 

[zztong]

They just look soooo unnatural and...well, stick out like a sore thumb. Are there not assets, e.g. snowdrifts, sanddrifts, brambles and bushes, etc. that can camoflauge those stark edges or is the ground "foundation" of the POI pretty much set in stone when it's defined? (Haven't spent any time in the editor yet myself.)

Shrubs and hedges arrived in A21.

As to if a POI should have shrubs and hedges, that's as varied as real life. My own real-life home only has a hedge on 2 of 4 sides. One complication with hedges is that players and zombies can stand on them, which isn't always desirable.

You can graduate terrain within a POI and to get a gentle slope you tend to need to spread it out over 4-5 (perhaps more) blocks. If you're talking about a 25x25 POI then a gentle slope in all directions will chew up a pretty significant amount of your space, but the larger POI marker sizes could be more generous.