PC My personal issues with 7 Days To Die

[rev678]

RE: My personal issues with 7 Days To Die, and zombie portrayals in movies and games in general (LONG)

I consider myself something of a zombie "purist" (some might say "snob," but to each their own).

World War Z and other movies where zombies run (or other incongruities) didn't work for me, for the same reasons that I have to consciously tweak 7 Days to Die after every release to make it work "properly," to mesh with my own psyche.

It all starts with the basic zombie apocalypse premise... you theoretically have a virus or bacteria or parasite or irradiation or genetic mutation that is causing what started as normal, human bodies to become the mindless undead.

Everything that kills a human body SHOULD kill a zombie.

Not only headshots, for example. If I shoot a living mammal... with a modern, decently-expanding, high-caliber rifle cartridge... aimed center mass (or just under the armpit, if the target is standing upright broadside, otherwise just behind the armpit if broadside on all fours)... blowing out their heart and/or lungs... it drops them dead pretty quickly. Google "strasbourg tests" if you're curious about the mechanics. In the meantime, please bear with me.

Zombies hunger for human flesh and/or brains, depending on which sub-genre we're talking about. If they eat, their digestive tracts must process said food, albeit "passively" (they may not consciously stop to use a toilet for defecation). In order for the digestive system to function, it requires blood circulation and oxygenation of body cells. Blood circulation requires functioning of the cardiovascular system (the heart, arteries, veins, capillaries). Oxygenation requires functioning of the respiratory system (lungs, working with the diaphragm, and chest and abdomen muscles). If it has blood, and if it pumps blood around its body to make the body do things, and if it needs to breathe to oxygenate its cells, it can be killed the same as any other organism that has blood and needs oxygen.

When I see zombies destroying what would be 50+ year old trees with their bare fists, or bashing concrete or steel structures into rubble piles, something inside my logical brain has little spasms. Zombies may have an infection or disorder that causes their nervous systems to not respond to pain, which could make them APPEAR invulnerable (like actual human beings suffering from diseases like CIPA), but it should not prevent them from taking damage to their bodies by bashing their hands against solid trees and bark and reinforced building materials. MINIMALLY, repeated blows with bare hands to solid objects should cause debilitating damage to the limbs in question. Yes, even for players. For that very reason, I don't let myself, as a player, punch trees to collect wood... no matter how desperate I am to craft that next batch of arrows.

Likewise, while the zombie infection may cause issues with the nervous system of the human host, it should not give them physical abilities the human host would not normally have... beyond pain imperceptibility, as mentioned above. A 400-pound Hawaiian shirt wearing fellow who in life could barely walk from his recliner in his living room to receive his pizza delivery order without wheezing like he's dying SHOULD NOT be able to suddenly jump even 1 meter off the ground, merely because his mind is being controlled by a parasitic infection. He might be able to take a punch without whining, something he likely couldn't have done pre-apocalypse, because pain sensitivity is a psychological function controlled by the nervous system and I'll concede that the zombie infection likely takes control of said system. But he shouldn't develop physical capabilities beyond what his flesh and bones and organs and other body cells are physically capable of.

Along those lines, most zombies should not run... not even at night... and especially not without their BODIES succumbing to the rigors of doing so (in spite of their infected MINDS being resistant to merely "giving up" psychologically), as their human flesh would in life. Again, if the big guy could barely walk in life, what makes zombie infection so special that his bones and muscles and tendons and ligaments can suddenly propel the same flesh to gazelle speeds and maintain said speeds indefinitely. I don't buy it. If the body was athletic in life, then perhaps the same body may have similar capabilities in undeath. If not, back to the drawing board. Or in my case, changing zombie running to NEVER. I was excited to see additional zombie speed options in the Alpha 17 B221 release. THANK YOU FUN PIMPS SO VERY MUCH!

ALL OF THAT SAID, I thoroughly enjoy playing 7 Days To Die... AFTER maxing out the 24 hour cycle and daylight lengths so I can actually look around and enjoy the game for more than a brief glimpse, changing zombie speeds to WALK, maxing out block durability to make stationary object damages feel more realistic for myself and the zeds, ... AND THEN using TextWrangler to edit out ferals, projectile vomiting cops and vultures, those annoying dogs, and anything else that feels "out of place," to me, from XML files.

But that's really the beauty of the game. Between what the Pimps have included as user-adjustable settings, and the end-user's willingness and ability to muck around with text files, the game can be fine-tuned to be enjoyable for most anyone, even on older hardware.

I'm currently playing the game on a MacPro 4.1 from early 2009, 2.66GHz quad-core Xeon, 32GB 1066MHz DDR3, 7200RPM spinning disks, and a meager 3GB Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 GPU, all running on OS X 10.11.6 (El Capitan).

Granted, if I want a more-comfortable 60FPS (versus an often-motion-sickness-inducing 30FPS or less), I have to play on the LOW video preset. Doing so DOES make it difficult to read lettering on signs, among other things, but the game becomes playable with that concession.

All in all, I'm more happy than not with 7 Days To Die, and I'm hopeful for its future.

Thanks for taking the time to read my soliloquy. Some may see it more as a diatribe, but that's really not the case. We're always more passionate about things we truly care about.

Catch you in game!

Cheers,

REV6:7-8

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OPINIONS:

My personal issues with 7 Days To Die, and zombie portrayals in movies and games in general

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?99830-My-personal-issues-with-7-Days-To-Die

_________________________

MODLETS:

REV6:7-8's ADMIN SKILL POINTS

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?100767-REV6-7-8-s-ADMIN-SKILL-POINTS

REV6:7-8's REALITY CHECK

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?100533-REV6-7-8-s-REALITY-CHECK

 

[Knasp]

I found this post by your modlet and while I'm definitely not a zombie purist, I still agree with most of what you wrote.

The game doesn't have to strive for 100% "realism" but I'd like it to strive toward being believable, internally consistent, and more immersive.

In general I see the point of modding the game in two directions.

1. Building bases/defenses, crafting and farming

2. Nomadic: scavenging and staying afoot

For me, the second direction is most exciting. I'm a big L4D fan so I like running zombies and the need to stay together with a group. I've just started to learn modding 7D2D, and right now I'm attempting to mod a co-op experience with a focus on scanvenging.

 

[Evorith]

RE: My personal issues with 7 Days To Die, and zombie portrayals in movies and games in general (LONG)
I consider myself something of a zombie "purist" (some might say "snob," but to each their own).

World War Z and other movies where zombies run (or other incongruities) didn't work for me, for the same reasons that I have to consciously tweak 7 Days to Die after every release to make it work "properly," to mesh with my own psyche.

It all starts with the basic zombie apocalypse premise... you theoretically have a virus or bacteria or parasite or irradiation or genetic mutation that is causing what started as normal, human bodies to become the mindless undead.

REV6:7-8

Its funny you are talking about the 80's genre. Where, I was brought up with Shelly, D&D games and older movies were most zombies were made by humans via magic and or with Shelly, Science or Voodoo, so there really is no such things as a purist, Its just what you perceive as right, what you were brought up with or experienced first. It's like what's been happening to Vampires being turned good like in Twlight, which for me is just as challenging to accept but their are new generation of people that think of them like that. Having said that Ive just become more open minded on all the differences other than twilight vamps.

 

[Kam R.]

I'm sure many here may already have seen this video. Mabye I originally even found it here, idk. But whenever some form of zombie lore/"realism" arguments come up I feel reminded of it, so I'll drop it here. It's a good watch, even not for the sake of argument:

It showcases nicely how Zombies don't/ can't have one fixed lore or ruleset. The Zombie as an antagonistic plot device and its portrayal has evolved time and time again, to hit the nerve of the times culturally, or in games to provide specific game mechanic functionalities. And more importantly to revive a genre that was thought dead already –Again and again.

The good thing is that 7dtd has yet to establish its full lore, so the zombies can be pretty much anything at this point. And since it's fiction that anything can be as unrealistic and outlandish as can be. If it serves to support the gameplay mechanics (and technical limitations) it's okay, I'd say. And it's definitely a smart choice to make the game first and story last in this case.

Where is it established that their bodies have fully retained physical properties of human bodies?

Where is it established that they actually seek to digest what they chew on?

Where is it established that their muscular tissue requires oxigenation and hasn't completely changed its composition to something completely different? (Which could aswell lead to explanations as to how they have fists of steel punching thru concrete now...)

Not gonna claim that I'd have the knowledge to actually write up an example that would make sense scientifically, I'll leave that to more talented/imaginative writers. )

I understand all the points you're making, I just think it's a mistake to see "the zombie" as a creature that needs to be a specific way and not the thing it always was: Something seemingly unreal, uncomfortably defying logic and rules, that once was a human being and now is a feral, agressive being, understanding only one language: Violence.

7dtd-Zs fit that description just fine. I'll be concerned when I find them having tea parties in the abandoned house I just sneaked into.

 

[rev678]

I found this post by your modlet and while I'm definitely not a zombie purist, I still agree with most of what you wrote.

Admittedly, I may be a zombie "purist" the way most people are "terrific drivers." I see myself as that, but that's my own interpretation of reality. It may or may not have any factual basis.

The game doesn't have to strive for 100% "realism" but I'd like it to strive toward being believable, internally consistent, and more immersive.

Amen to that. Very well said.

If it was 100% real, we wouldn't be able to carry a motorcycle in our backpack. With a 4x4 truck. And a gyrocopter. The whole idea of encumbrance in the game was an attempt at a somewhat more plausible reality. I'm not sure that TFP have the whole encumbrance-stamina-penalties mechanic smoothly ironed out just yet. But every update seems a step in the right direction, so I'll be buggered if I ask them to remove that particular feature.

That's just one example of an incongruity I'm not only willing to live with, but actually really like. Especially in the context of correcting what I personally perceive to be other imbalances.

And besides, it's still MILES ahead of other games with encumbrance systems that I've loved in the past, like EverQuest. My very first DAY playing EQ, some "friendly" druid in wolf form came into the newbie garden just outside Halas and offered me a million coins, "to help out a newbie." Being so green to the game, and seeing an opportunity to advance my berserker's burgeoning "prowess" in the game, I accepted his trade offer. One million copper pieces sure weighs a fella down. Even a brute like Duh (my first toon, fitting name in retrospect). I couldn't move. Not an inch.

For me, the second direction is most exciting. I'm a big L4D fan so I like running zombies and the need to stay together with a group. I've just started to learn modding 7D2D, and right now I'm attempting to mod a co-op experience with a focus on scanvenging.

That's really the beauty of games like 7DTD. Between the customizations available via GUI game options, creation and sharing of modlets to address many other preferences, and an individual player's willingness and/or ability to poke around in XML text files, whatever version of reality a player wants to experience in the game is possible... even if your version of reality and my version of reality and the next person's version of reality may be at different points on the spectrum at times.

Thanks for your comments, and catch you in game!

REV6:7-8

 

[Kalarro]

A game needs to be fun. Sometimes, realism makes it fun indeed, other times (most of the times) making it fun makes it unrealistic.

This game main feature is building defenses against the 7 days hordes. If it were realistic, they couldnt even beat a single wall. How would this game be fun then?

 

[rev678]

Its funny you are talking about the 80's genre.

I was a high school kid in the 1980's, so most of my formative "cultural" references (TV, movies, music... I hated reading as a youth, because my parents used "go read" as a form of punishment for lesser offenses) were from that era.

Grew up in a home with one television, channels 2 through 13, a staunchly conservative dad in law enforcement, and a mom who blushed at even clinical references to body parts while managing to raise three kids. We watched what my parents (mostly my dad) wanted to watch (hockey, baseball, but never football and only college basketball). The "sex talk" was "don't get girls in trouble," with no disambiguation about how we might possibly do or avoid that. My dad's major contribution to our intellectual and social upbringing was "don't have the cops bring you home."

Where, I was brought up with Shelly, D&D games and older movies were most zombies were made by humans via magic and or with Shelly, Science or Voodoo,

It wasn't until the "social petri dish" of college that my horizons really broadened and I could experience things beyond what my family considered interesting or entertainment. That's when I learned to love movies with Boris Karloff and Bela Lugosi and Vincent Price, started playing D&D, and then really explored many of those "new" (to me) ideas programming and running MUD games on Unix servers.

It could be challenging to create a modern video game with earlier zombie concepts (re-animated body parts sewn together and electrocuted by mad scientists in eastern European castles, or spiritually and/or chemically and/or herbally mind-controlled unwitting servants enslaved by Caribbean and/or African voodoo priests and/or priestesses and/or witch doctors), unless there's a virtual army of said mad scientists and/or voodoo priests and/or priestess and/or witch doctors in-game to continually churn out a steady supply of zombie fodder for players.

I'd personally at least TRY a video game that employs any of those mechanics, just to see how it plays out. But it may not have the same mass market appeal that Romero-ish, Resident Evil, and/or WWZ zombies seem to have with western consumers today. When it comes down to it, TFP is a business, and they're going to put their KSAEEs (knowledge, skills, abilities, education, experience) where the biggest cash cow is.

so there really is no such things as a purist, Its just what you perceive as right, what you were brought up with or experienced first.

Admittedly, I may be a zombie "purist" the way most people are "terrific drivers." I see myself as that, but that's my own interpretation of reality. It may or may not have any factual basis.

It's like what's been happening to Vampires being turned good like in Twlight, which for me is just as challenging to accept but their are new generation of people that think of them like that. Having said that Ive just become more open minded on all the differences other than twilight vamps.

All I have to say about Twilight is...

Thanks for your comments, and catch you in game!

REV6:7-8

 

[rev678]

A game needs to be fun. Sometimes, realism makes it fun indeed, other times (most of the times) making it fun makes it unrealistic.

It really boils down to individual perspective. We all bring our own life experiences to play every time we decide whether something is interesting or entertaining or fun or boring or dismal or lame.

For example, some people enjoy watching (either on TV or in person) or even (God forbid IMO) playing golf, or bowling. I'd personally rather see if I can hold my breath longer and longer during progressively more brutal waterboarding sessions. But that's just me.

This game main feature is building defenses against the 7 days hordes. If it were realistic, they couldnt even beat a single wall. How would this game be fun then?

For people who enjoy "tower defense" type games, having the safety of a base they can retreat to after enduring the dangers of the outside world can bring its own pleasures. That particular game playstyle may be for you what golf and/or bowling are for me.

Again, everyone plays the game for their own reasons, and derives their own pleasures from the game. Hence, the popularity of different modlets with different people.

Thanks for your comments, and catch you in game!

REV6:7-8

 

[rev678]

...

I just think it's a mistake to see "the zombie" as a creature that needs to be a specific way and not the thing it always was: Something seemingly unreal, uncomfortably defying logic and rules, that once was a human being and now is a feral, agressive being, understanding only one language: Violence. 7dtd-Zs fit that description just fine.

That's why I prefaced my OP with "My personal issues." I never intended to say that my own interpretation of zombies is the only correct interpretation. I merely opted to share with the 7DTD community my own thoughts on what make zombie movies and games fun/enjoyable for myself personally.

Everyone has their own, unique, deeply-intimate interpretation of the world around them (including virtual worlds), driven largely by their own personal life experiences. My own life experiences have given me the perspectives I shared in the initial post.

I'll be concerned when I find them having tea parties in the abandoned house I just sneaked into.

For someone like myself, that could be both highly amusing and deeply disturbing at the same time, in no particular order.

Thanks for your comments, and catch you in game!

REV6:7-8

 

[Kam R.]

(...)
Everyone has their own, unique, deeply-intimate interpretation of the world around them (including virtual worlds), driven largely by their own personal life experiences.(...)

REV6:7-8

Indeed. And I found yours to be interesting what prompted me to share mine. The last part of my post could have been clearer, as in pointing out that that part was less directed at you personally and more at certain group of players who advocate for their ideas of realism more vehemently and with a lot less tolerance of other perspectives.

 

[rev678]

Indeed. And I found yours to be interesting what prompted me to share mine. The last part of my post could have been clearer, as in pointing out that that part was less directed at you personally and more at certain group of players who advocate for their ideas of realism more vehemently and with a lot less tolerance of other perspectives.

Well said.

 

[Hek Harris]

A courteous and respectful dialogue on a gaming forum ... something terrible will happen.

 

[rev678]

A courteous and respectful dialogue on a gaming forum ... something terrible will happen.

If we're rude to each other, we might get millions of social media followers and maybe even elected to high office. But I've got too many skeletons in my closet to take that chance.

Cheers!

REV6:7-8

 

[Laz Man]

Thanks for sharing OP and thanks for the well thought out responses. At some point I would love to try several modlets that would allow us to experience the Romero style zombie experience that is common in alot of movie/t.v. shows.

The tricky part is finding a game balance that both is challenging and fun but also offers longevity.

I would imagine a world where food and ammo is extremely scarce and the number of zombies is extremely high but without special abilities and easily kill able through head trauma.

The current levels of stamina management right now feels right for such a game mode.

Building/crafting would probably need to be stripped down to more realistic levels as well. Perhaps just to the ability to reinforce buildings until the very late game.

 

[babspsol]

I always set them to run. In my mind they are the product of a medical experiment where the virus/mutation got out and destroyed the world. Maybe because this game's original menu music was based on 28 days later I therefore picture the 28 days later story line, world and zombie / mutant behaviour.

It bugs me to no end that anyone can die in TV / movie to walking Zombies.....just binged a season of TWD so this bug bear is fresh in my mind.

 

[Kalarro]

having the safety of a base they can retreat to after enduring the dangers of the outside world can bring its own pleasures. That particular game playstyle may be for you what golf and/or bowling are for me.

I love having that safe place to retreat to. But I love having to achieve it. If you just make walls unbreakable by zombie fists, like they should be in real life, you take 50% of the content away from the game. Even more for players who enjoy the building more than the fighting.

 

[Knasp]

I would imagine a world where food and ammo is extremely scarce and the number of zombies is extremely high but without special abilities and easily kill able through head trauma.
The current levels of stamina management right now feels right for such a game mode.

Building/crafting would probably need to be stripped down to more realistic levels as well. Perhaps just to the ability to reinforce buildings until the very late game.

What you're describing is close to what I'm currently aiming for in my modding project. I want a co-op experience with exploring and scavenging during the daytime, finding safe houses and maybe barricading yourself, and then during the night you use the time to repair/modify your gear, lvl up, plan the next day's venture and of course share a meal.

 

[Hek Harris]

I would imagine a world where food and ammo is extremely scarce and the number of zombies is extremely high but without special abilities and easily kill able through head trauma.The current levels of stamina management right now feels right for such a game mode.

Building/crafting would probably need to be stripped down to more realistic levels as well. Perhaps just to the ability to reinforce buildings until the very late game.

We launched a game with friends 2 years ago where I removed all the recipes. No more craft. Just loot and survive. That was very fun. With that game, we can do almost what we want. Like remove zombies and replace them by wolves, snakes, bears and vultures everywhere. Welcome in zooland.

 

[rev678]

I always set them to run. In my mind they are the product of a medical experiment where the virus/mutation got out and destroyed the world. Maybe because this game's original menu music was based on 28 days later I therefore picture the 28 days later story line, world and zombie / mutant behaviour.
It bugs me to no end that anyone can die in TV / movie to walking Zombies.....just binged a season of TWD so this bug bear is fresh in my mind.

I tend to watch Hulu or Netflix or YouTube while playing video games, so can't dedicate as much grey matter to rapid hand-eye coordination.

If the zeds are running, I have a harder time multitasking. Especially so if I'm watching 7DTD videos on YouTube while trying to play 7DTD.

Whenever Glock9 or Vedui fall through a floor they weren't expecting to collapse, or have zeds drop from a ceiling on top of them, or don't notice a zed in the corner until they walk right beside it... that "oh crap" moment on-screen for them often results in me having a similar moment on my own screen at the same time.

Thanks for your comments, and catch you in game!

REV6:7-8

 

[rev678]

I love having that safe place to retreat to. But I love having to achieve it. If you just make walls unbreakable by zombie fists, like they should be in real life, you take 50% of the content away from the game. Even more for players who enjoy the building more than the fighting.

Some days I want that same kind of challenge. Other times I merely want to scorch the very earth beneath my feet. So I keep multiple saved games with descriptive names like PRIMITIVE WEAPONS ONLY or COME GET SOME (maxed out automatic weapons and ammo). Regardless of which saved game I'm playing, I tend to have a minimum of two (2) bases or base structures.

My main base is where I do all my crafting, place my bedroll or bed, and general want to feel as safe as possible given the end-of-the-world scenario outside. Any additional structures tend to be "fighting stations," either melee or ranged or some combination.

Every game week's nights 1 through 6, I spend the night in the my main base, at least until the nightvision goggles are fixed. That's also when I do most of my channel surfing on streaming services. Night 7, I'm in a fighting station (or multiple stations, if I have 2 or more connected via tunnels or raised catwalks).

It all depends on my particular mood during that game session.

Thanks for your comments, and catch you in game!

REV6:7-8