PC Make item grade a little more relevant with items where it matters

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Lord_Clown1

New member
A dull faulty machete does the same damage as a sharp and flawless one. That's one weapon that needs a buff regardless. Machete is nearly useless atm, even max perked, there are way better options, like sledge.

So, making the grade there a little more relevant may be cool, as it's a blade, maybe with fireaxes too with that logic. But i guess pickaxes durability matters much more, but maybe you could scale a little and make it a little better.

Also, tried the new patch, found out the level caps still aren't removed, gave up. But i do think some of the zombie exp things have been done better, although, i need to do more testing with everything else to find out if it's really good.

What are your intentions with the skill system and level caps stuff? The poll had it's saying, i just wanna know your thoughts, as i've been a fan for so long. Now i'm not expecting an answer, but anyhow, keep up the good work, and even if i'm not enjoying this patch as much as i'd like, i still want to thank you guys for the awesome time i've had with the previous alphas from 8-15 at least. I felt a bit forced at 16 due to level caps, but i could still play things my way somewhat, so i just went full scavenging and got my tools that way.

Anyhow, thanks and cheers.

 
Except, its not dull faulty machete.

Its just a mechete. It'll dull faster, but will be equally sharp when sharepened, just will wear down faster.

Mods are a thing and sledge will run out of stamina in no time and is much, much, MUCH slower to swing.

Obviously level caps aren't removed, that's the point of level caps and the new system(newsflash: A16 also had level caps)

 
machete is still the second best melee weapon (base) in the game...right after sledge, and sledge is just so far ahead of all other melee weapons that it's ridiculous.

Basically, if you're going melee, you should probably be using a sledge no matter what.

As far as quality goes, Katitof hit it on the head...higher quality is better assembled, better materials....it'll just last longer.

The level gates help keep the endgame from arriving on day 5, and the gamestage adjustments and gathering changes (in the latest build at least) have made the early game less of a race to level 20 (for forge). The progression curve is smoothing out nicely (want to gather, spec into strength gathering perks, and so on) allowing the early game to be more than just a mindless race to get as high of abilities(A16)/level(A17) as possible.

I'm not really the biggest fan of the gates at their current numbers, and I think that the incredible zombie block damage in A17 is strongly at odds with the slower early game progression, but overall, i like the smoother experience of moving from garbage skills/gear to godlike skills/gear, and the challenge shifting along with it a bit better.

 
I'm not sure how viable other melee weapons are vs sledge. It's not sledge being ahead, it's the other weapons being weak despite needing more perks for its potential (flurry)

Tried to melee a radiated wight today (max difficulty + sprint) with max perks. Sledge? Managed to keep him down and dead eventually. Took a while.

The other weapons? Good luck. You can pray for a decapitation with machete but outside of that happening, you're dead.

Clubs? The knockdowns aren't reliable enough (yeah of course, lesser stam = lesser chance) but the result is on higher difficulties or mobs with higher hp pools, not working out.

 
I'm not sure how viable other melee weapons are vs sledge. It's not sledge being ahead, it's the other weapons being weak despite needing more perks for its potential (flurry)
Tried to melee a radiated wight today (max difficulty + sprint) with max perks. Sledge? Managed to keep him down and dead eventually. Took a while.

The other weapons? Good luck. You can pray for a decapitation with machete but outside of that happening, you're dead.

Clubs? The knockdowns aren't reliable enough (yeah of course, lesser stam = lesser chance) but the result is on higher difficulties or mobs with higher hp pools, not working out.
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AK47 seems like an appropriate response to a wight trying to play smart !

 
machete is still the second best melee weapon (base) in the game...right after sledge, and sledge is just so far ahead of all other melee weapons that it's ridiculous.
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Newp!

Can't agree with that.

Machete is #1 for those who like to stick and move.

It also allows you to harvest meat which saves a spot on the tool belt for a gun.

[This alone makes it #1 in my book]

 
Damage-wise, sledge is a mile ahead (per hit).

When i play non-strength-centric builds, I definitely use machete. It's damage isn't terrible, and the slot saving is definitely a big selling point, but the low knockdown chance is really rough, especially since if i'm not playing strength, i'm playing perception, and if i need that machete as a weapon, it means i got surrounded or surprised, and not having a knockdown there hurts even more.

 
Since last update I feel that sledge shouldnt be used on low level if you are against more than 2 or 3 zombies

 
Since last update I feel that sledge shouldnt be used on low level if you are against more than 2 or 3 zombies
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Yeah it's by no means an early game weapon anymore.

Maybe that's a good thing?

 
I never get away from using the iron club. I feel like I'm in slow motion when I try the sledge. Am I reading the perks incorrectly, or does the sledge have an AE perk?

-Morloc

 
Each melee weapon has its pros and cons, and with mods, that serves to mitigate the lackluster quality system currently in place.

Clubs are a good all-around choice balancing speed and damage, and with mods can actually rise them to the upper ranks of melee choices.

Machetes are solid for damage, especially that satisfying power attack, but require different perks than the club, so taking mods into account, I would say they are on par with clubs depending on your perk decisions. Being able to use them for harvesting meat however puts them a cut above (no pun intended) the clubs by saving you an inventory spot.

Knives are just weak machetes but can do some nice damage early on with mods. Same principle being able to harvest meat go for these as well.

Sledgehammers are absolute beasts for damage. They can serve multiple purposes for both breaching tough doors as well as performing crude lobotomies on zombies. The downside is that the stamina consumption is absurd, and rightfully so. If you miss a swing, it's devastating to your overall strategy. Also generally not good for handling large groups since you will likely run out of stamina long before you take them all down.

However, let me toss in a wild card that a lot of people haven't considered. Unarmed with spiked knuckes mod on your gloves. After testing this out, I'll say these are absolutely the highest damage per stamina point spent of any melee weapon in the game. Normal zombies go down in 1-2 power hits if your Strength is decent and the stamina usage is negligible as well as having the attack speed of fists, which means you can, in the immortal words of Admiral Halsey, hit hard, hit fast, and hit often. I accidentally woke up a whole room with 3 ferals, 1 fatty, and 4 regular zombies and within 30-40 seconds they were all on their backs for good. I took 1 hit in the process and when it was said and done, I still had 3/4 of my stamina bar. Not bad for one little mod!

 
Reinforced club for me, while everything else is having it's power attack nerfed (via stamina) the r-club is still hanging on in there. I create one within the first 5 minutes of my playthrough (100 iron? 3 boulders.. boom, you have a reinforced club!) and only really amend it when my crafting levels increase allowing me to place more mods/dyes onto it. It's essentially my "go-to" weapon for crowd control.

I should say though, that despite being positive about A17, I still have an issue regarding the way weapons are graded. Sure, I understand the logic; higher level is more mods not more damage, but it still feels wrong to me. I can live with, although I'm not overly inspired by, the level gates but a weapon level of 1 which you pick up on the first day of your playthrough can effectively be the same weapon you use throughout the entirety of that playthrough. Repairing it has no negatives and as the damage is the same there is absolutely no reason to go searching for a newer (better) one - other than a mod slot, and even then how many people use more than 1 or 2 mods on each item?

It just goes against all the fundamental gaming logic that 5 > 1. Now it's 5 ≅ 1.

 
Reinforced club for me, while everything else is having it's power attack nerfed (via stamina) the r-club is still hanging on in there. I create one within the first 5 minutes of my playthrough (100 iron? 3 boulders.. boom, you have a reinforced club!) and only really amend it when my crafting levels increase allowing me to place more mods/dyes onto it. It's essentially my "go-to" weapon for crowd control.
I should say though, that despite being positive about A17, I still have an issue regarding the way weapons are graded. Sure, I understand the logic; higher level is more mods not more damage, but it still feels wrong to me. I can live with, although I'm not overly inspired by, the level gates but a weapon level of 1 which you pick up on the first day of your playthrough can effectively be the same weapon you use throughout the entirety of that playthrough. Repairing it has no negatives and as the damage is the same there is absolutely no reason to go searching for a newer (better) one - other than a mod slot, and even then how many people use more than 1 or 2 mods on each item?

It just goes against all the fundamental gaming logic that 5 > 1. Now it's 5 ≅ 1.
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I would be ok if quality tiers only gave a slight increase in damage. I mean before A17 the damage difference on say a spiked club between a quality 100 and quality 600 was pretty massive. Considering that we have mods and perks to offset the lack of damage increase with quality, at least a small increase to damage, maybe 1-2% upgrade per tier would really feel more incentivising than just having something you can put more mods on and will last a little longer, especially since mods for things like melee weapons are still kind of limited.

 
I would be ok if quality tiers only gave a slight increase in damage. I mean before A17 the damage difference on say a spiked club between a quality 100 and quality 600 was pretty massive. Considering that we have mods and perks to offset the lack of damage increase with quality, at least a small increase to damage, maybe 1-2% upgrade per tier would really feel more incentivising than just having something you can put more mods on and will last a little longer, especially since mods for things like melee weapons are still kind of limited.
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The way it is now just seems counter intuitive. That's my biggest issue with it. You rightly say there is a lack of incentivisation in regard to upgrading your weapon.

IMO, I believe the way they've coded the game has probably led to the way weapons work. Perhaps too much of an overhead keeping track of quality/damage for each item, perhaps it's a big optimisation to set all weapons of a set type to have certain characteristics and the only things that change are the character/weapon modifiers which can be calculated much easier without any fancy maths relating to quality/damage. I say probably a lot there, as it is it's just a guess. Can't see any other reason as to why a level 1 gun is as capable as a level 5 gun. You could argue, they are the "same gun", which sure... is an argument for the way it is now, but if that's the case then it shouldn't be a case of just one pistol, there should be lot's of different models of pistol.

 
From what I can tell from the xml file, the quality of a weapon only effects its degradation rate and how many mods you can put into it.

Reinforced club for me, with barb wire upgrade.

- P

 
The way it is now just seems counter intuitive. That's my biggest issue with it. You rightly say there is a lack of incentivisation in regard to upgrading your weapon.
IMO, I believe the way they've coded the game has probably led to the way weapons work. Perhaps too much of an overhead keeping track of quality/damage for each item, perhaps it's a big optimisation to set all weapons of a set type to have certain characteristics and the only things that change are the character/weapon modifiers which can be calculated much easier without any fancy maths relating to quality/damage. I say probably a lot there, as it is it's just a guess. Can't see any other reason as to why a level 1 gun is as capable as a level 5 gun. You could argue, they are the "same gun", which sure... is an argument for the way it is now, but if that's the case then it shouldn't be a case of just one pistol, there should be lot's of different models of pistol.
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Well, I mean in reality, a mint condition gun would fire the same round with the same velocity as one that was beat and scratched all to hell. There is that arguement. It's possible that they are aiming more for realism, but for that to take full effect they would have to incorporate a system to where lower quality guns, meaning probably damaged or worn, have a higher likelyhood of malfunctioning than a high quality gun will. I suppose the lower quality gun wearing out faster is a blanket simulation of this, but for it to be something significant, the breakdowns would have to be random. Very little can spike the tension in a tight situation like your weapon jamming or malfunctioning in the middle of a firefight. Now that would actually add some tension and risk to those looting runs. It would make weapon quality really count for something.

 
Well, I mean in reality, a mint condition gun would fire the same round with the same velocity as one that was beat and scratched all to hell. There is that arguement. It's possible that they are aiming more for realism, but for that to take full effect they would have to incorporate a system to where lower quality guns, meaning probably damaged or worn, have a higher likelyhood of malfunctioning than a high quality gun will. I suppose the lower quality gun wearing out faster is a blanket simulation of this, but for it to be something significant, the breakdowns would have to be random. Very little can spike the tension in a tight situation like your weapon jamming or malfunctioning in the middle of a firefight. Now that would actually add some tension and risk to those looting runs. It would make weapon quality really count for something.
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A gun in poor condition could potentially be less accurate due to warping or dirt/roughness in the barrel and have less range/velocity/damage due to wear allowing escape gas venting rather than propelling the bullet down the barrel. AND it would be more likely to jam or malfunction. So small degradations in all of the gun's characteristics could be considered "realistic". (Though I'm not sure TFPs current damage numbers have enough granularity to make this work ATM.)

However, I'm with you that tying gun quality to a chance of the gun jamming or even breaking would be a great mechanic for making high quality guns desirable.

 
A gun in poor condition could potentially be less accurate due to warping or dirt/roughness in the barrel and have less range/velocity/damage due to wear allowing escape gas venting rather than propelling the bullet down the barrel. AND it would be more likely to jam or malfunction. So small degradations in all of the gun's characteristics could be considered "realistic". (Though I'm not sure TFPs current damage numbers have enough granularity to make this work ATM.)
However, I'm with you that tying gun quality to a chance of the gun jamming or even breaking would be a great mechanic for making high quality guns desirable.
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Good points as well. I mean we might be talking about concepts that are out of the realm of possibility anytime soon, but it would be amazing to incorporate all these into the weapon system. I'm just glad they didn't go forward with the idea of a weapon having a chance to break when you removed a mod. I would be highly pissed if my Q6 Marksman Rifle went poof just because I was changing the 2X scope with the 4X I just found.

 
But there would be a solution for both of you and realism:

Aerial: They could make the jamming of weapons not based on quality, but based on the current durability of the weapon. This would be somewhat plausible, and higher QL Weapons would have the advantage that they don't jam that often, because durability falls slower (spoken percentage-wise) than lower ql weapons. for example if they take an exponential approach, so the weapons starts to jam with 0/ at 75% durability, and 100% at 0% durability.

Skeeter: They could put the mod adding/removing system in, but not breaking the weapon, instead having an impact on durability. Removing a mod: -10% current durability. Adding a mod: the same, %ages could be dependent on a skill. Skilled Gun-Maker: durability increases. Dumb-Bastard: Risk of losing 50% dura or more on the weapon.

 
But there would be a solution for both of you and realism:Aerial: They could make the jamming of weapons not based on quality, but based on the current durability of the weapon. This would be somewhat plausible, and higher QL Weapons would have the advantage that they don't jam that often, because durability falls slower (spoken percentage-wise) than lower ql weapons. for example if they take an exponential approach, so the weapons starts to jam with 0/ at 75% durability, and 100% at 0% durability.

Skeeter: They could put the mod adding/removing system in, but not breaking the weapon, instead having an impact on durability. Removing a mod: -10% current durability. Adding a mod: the same, %ages could be dependent on a skill. Skilled Gun-Maker: durability increases. Dumb-Bastard: Risk of losing 50% dura or more on the weapon.
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That seems like a good way to handle it. It would provide incentive not only to have higher quality weapons but also to spend the resources to keep them repaired. Additionally tying the chances to the quality tier (i.e. a blue or purple weapon at 0 durability might have 75% chance to jam rather than 100% for brown) could create better separation between the overall value of the quality tiers.

 
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