PC Generic discussion: Enemies

RestInPieces

RestInPieces

Refugee
Some are happy with the direction the game is going concerning enemies, others not so much (I belong to the latter category, because lately the game starts reminding me of Serious Sam). Both visually but most importantly gameplay-wise. I am sure more content will be added in the future and I certainly don't expect TFP to create 9999 different models, animations and abilities, especially at this point of development, but I can't help but wonder if there are any easy ways to improve enemies.

So I'll just mention some things I am not particularly happy about and ask some questions at the same time:

-Flat difficulty increase

As gamestages progress, bullet-sponges, irradiated zombies, specials etc keep increasing. Are continuously stronger super-zombies, the only way to counter stronger materials/traps that keep being added to the game? I get that is an easy way to add more depth to the game's progression curve but this is only superficial depth. While I would be perfectly fine with these zombies being used sparsely in specific occasions or areas, they are now just used as a means to flatly balance the difficulty curve of the game with the progression curve of the player, with the game throwing an increasing number of them at the player, in a very arcade-like way.

I don't know where to begin with to be honest. In an imaginary progression curve, where steel for example, had to be used strategically, infection was more threatening and weapons/weapon handling had more impact on the effectiveness/ability of killing zombies and different types of zombies, zombies not being so predictable (but still being zombies) and the player wasn't able to reach the pinnacle of progression at the end of the 2nd week, plus much more, it could be possible for the zombie apocalypse to still remind us of an actual zombie apocalypse towards the end-game.

I won't even go into the visual part - the irradiated zombie effect is Scooby-Doo material - even Glowing Ones in Fallout were scarse and at least they fit into that setting.

-Model-specific abilities

Talking about all cops being fat and puking, all brunnete girls with long hair screaming, all skilly jeans tall guys climbing etc. As I said earlier it's understandable (still racist). But a question - what would be easier and more beneficial to do in the future? A UMA-like system for mutations/characteristics that can spawn on every zombie or just randomizing mutated zombie models? Would the former be possible/easier to do?

Edit: Also, as an alternative solution to this, imo, if hordes didn't just increase the number of special zombies during gamestages and instead special zombies were more rare and impactful mechanics-wise, the clone (clown for irradiated) horde wouldn't be so obvious. "Impactful" for instance, could be the cop explosion, not becoming a "bigger explosion", but for example releasing a gas cloud/maggots effect that will make nearby zombies feral/will infect etc, killing it by fire or whatever could negate that effect, so that it can threaten the player in ways it currently can't, but more immersive ones, the way I see it.

Furthermore, if for example special zombie models were not so "identifiable" like this guy for instance, when it comes for exploding zombies, or like the lickers in resident evil (whose face was mostly a brain and all brains are the same anyway), they would look less like clones of each other.

-Model-specific animations

From what I can tell in the game, Moe and Joe or the farmer zombie for example have different animations. Would it be possible to shuffle the animations among zombie species to get a more diverse horde?

-Zombie predictability/variety

I don't know if it's still true but I've been told that faatal is working on "random zombie behavior" - not sure what that includes exactly. Sprinkling just a little RNG on normal zombies would work wonders for combat though, like slight speed variations among zombies of the same model or a small chance for zombies to try and trip on you, or speed up a little when they get close and try to bite/"hug" at once (typical movie trope). Not sure which of those need new animations to happen but hopefully zombies become less "robotic" but without becoming "clever". Bite animations already exist, if limbs are destroyed (but the zombies still seem like they damage the player with their invisible hands considering the attack time though). Also, hopefully we will see zombies spawning with already destroyed limbs.

-Dogs

Just wish they weren't extremely more threatening than normal zombies and had improved animations or a more modest attack range.

 
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Talking about all cops being fat and puking, all brunnete girls with long hair screaming, all skilly jeans tall guys climbing etc. As I said earlier it's understandable (still racist).
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tumblr_p55ddz47NY1wzvt9qo1_1280.gif


-Morloc

 
A design issue with the game:

The player is able to use ranged weapons, while zombies (should) only be melee enemies.

Apart from that imbalance, the game also allows the player to change the topography of the map (eg place and remove blocks).

Its relatively easy to make a base defended against melee enemies, while standing on a vantage point killing them.

Thats why ranged zombies where also introduced. (puking stuff, exploding)

The problem: at that point is must get implausible. They are not braindead, mearly instinct driven half dead humans anymore (at least that is somewhat plausible), but they get to be "fantasy creatures", with unrealistic abilities.

At that points its easy to introduce more and more fantasy creatures to keep the player challenged (and get around the player simply avoiding attacks by blocking their walking-path). The game moves from a "Walking Dead" Survival atmosphere, to a generic fight against undead fantasy daemons.

What would help: getting the bandits in the game, who can naturally use ranged weapons (guns, rocket launchers, grenades ...)

They would not require making up fantasy mechanics to keep the player challenged and defensive base-building more interesting (additionally defending against ranged attacks).

For melee zombies to be more of a challenge, i would even nerf the spikes a lot, more serving to slowing down zombies than getting free kills. (As people using barbed-wire in the Walking Dead).

 
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But a question - what would be easier and more beneficial to do in the future? A UMA-like system for mutations/characteristics that can spawn on every zombie or just randomizing mutated zombie models? Would the former be possible/easier to do?
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The devs - last I heard - have given up on UMA zombies and only leave them in for modders. Which is greatly appreciated. I have played with the possibilities to a great extend, and wish that they would still be worked on. They have 2 (- 3) problems:

1. You cannot make them puke. Just doesn't work.

2. When they spawn, it causes a stuttering.

3. would be that there should be more design options, more heads (like a skull, half the face missing and such), more wounds and blood, and of course clothing, different uniforms and other working clothes, "real life" armor stuff, different helmets, leather jackets, rain coats and so on. It's a bit meh that I have to use the ingame armor. Another welcome addition would be the ability to spawn zombies with already missing limbs.

I use the ingame armor because I equip zombies with armor depending on their health. A zombie with low health can be naked or wearing only a t-shirt, a zombie with a lot of heatlh wears full armor. So it makes sense when you can't kill a zombie with a bullet to the head. Isn't that clever (hey, at least my wife thought so).

I made a little script to randomize clothing and colors

, who knows how to use PHP can find it here: https://pastebin.com/NWJkwa6N . You have to call the function "archetype", $mode needs to be not 1 (1 = only 1 random archetype is created), age needs to be "adult" -> I'm not sure if "child" is fully working. $Gender is "male" or "female". $name will be the name of the archetype and $health, well, that's a big secret. The function returns a variable $composer that contains the archetype, with the name $name.
Something like this should be in the game. It should create zombies actually at random, so no two zombies look the same. With my repertoire of over 23,000 different zombies, I use 1,800+ archetypes and already it is kinda rare to see the same zombie twice on screen. When I use UMAs, I usually run the script before a play session, so it's always fresh. Super neat. Once the UMAs have spawned, the game runs pretty good on my i5 with a 1050 and 16 GB RAM, but there is a noticable stutter constantly, because new zombies spawn constantly.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem: at that point is must get implausible. They are not braindead, mearly instinct driven half dead humans anymore (at least that is somewhat plausible), but they get to be "fantasy creatures", with unrealistic abilities.
At that points its easy to introduce more and more fantasy creatures to keep the player challenged (and get around the player simply avoiding attacks by blocking their walking-path). The game moves from a "Walking Dead" Survival atmosphere, to a generic fight against undead fantasy daemons.

What would help: getting the bandits in the game, who can naturally use ranged weapons (guns, rocket launchers, grenades ...)

They would not require making up fantasy mechanics to keep the player challenged and defensive base-building more interesting (additionally defending against ranged attacks).
Click to expand...
Bandits are a bit boring I think, as a "theme", and you can't really mix them in with the zombies on horde night. I wouldn't mind if they would use a generally more paranormal lore and add demons and whatnot. Not gonna happen, I assume though.
 
I made a little script to randomize clothing and colors...Something like this should be in the game. It should create zombies actually at random, so no two zombies look the same. With my repertoire of over 23,000 different zombies, I use 1,800+ archetypes and already it is kinda rare to see the same zombie twice on screen. When I use UMAs, I usually run the script before a play session, so it's always fresh. Super neat.
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That's awesome! I would love something like that for the vanilla game.

 
(because lately the game starts reminding me of Serious Sam). Both visually but most importantly gameplay-wise. .
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Croteam are beast.

SS3:BFE in VR is beast.

I'll take 7DaystoSerious in VR any day of the week. Make it happen TFP.

 
A design issue with the game:
The player is able to use ranged weapons, while zombies (should) only be melee enemies.

Apart from that imbalance, the game also allows the player to change the topography of the map (eg place and remove blocks).

Its relatively easy to make a base defended against melee enemies, while standing on a vantage point killing them.

Thats why ranged zombies where also introduced. (puking stuff, exploding)

The problem: at that point is must get implausible. They are not braindead, mearly instinct driven half dead humans anymore (at least that is somewhat plausible), but they get to be "fantasy creatures", with unrealistic abilities.

At that points its easy to introduce more and more fantasy creatures to keep the player challenged (and get around the player simply avoiding attacks by blocking their walking-path). The game moves from a "Walking Dead" Survival atmosphere, to a generic fight against undead fantasy daemons.

What would help: getting the bandits in the game, who can naturally use ranged weapons (guns, rocket launchers, grenades ...)

They would not require making up fantasy mechanics to keep the player challenged and defensive base-building more interesting (additionally defending against ranged attacks).

For melee zombies to be more of a challenge, i would even nerf the spikes a lot, more serving to slowing down zombies than getting free kills. (As people using barbed-wire in the Walking Dead).
Click to expand...
Fortnite has specific anti-building and more anti-player enemy types (there needs to be more anti building husks though tbh) and a few ranged enemies. Though fortnite's more of a science fantasy game with futuristic technology n a magic mcguffin substance called bluglo that is pushing back the storm.

 
A design issue with the game:
The player is able to use ranged weapons, while zombies (should) only be melee enemies.

Apart from that imbalance, the game also allows the player to change the topography of the map (eg place and remove blocks).

Its relatively easy to make a base defended against melee enemies, while standing on a vantage point killing them.

Thats why ranged zombies where also introduced. (puking stuff, exploding)

The problem: at that point is must get implausible. They are not braindead, mearly instinct driven half dead humans anymore (at least that is somewhat plausible), but they get to be "fantasy creatures", with unrealistic abilities.

At that points its easy to introduce more and more fantasy creatures to keep the player challenged (and get around the player simply avoiding attacks by blocking their walking-path). The game moves from a "Walking Dead" Survival atmosphere, to a generic fight against undead fantasy daemons.

What would help: getting the bandits in the game, who can naturally use ranged weapons (guns, rocket launchers, grenades ...)

They would not require making up fantasy mechanics to keep the player challenged and defensive base-building more interesting (additionally defending against ranged attacks).

For melee zombies to be more of a challenge, i would even nerf the spikes a lot, more serving to slowing down zombies than getting free kills. (As people using barbed-wire in the Walking Dead).
Click to expand...
Not only a thematic issue, but imo that makes for cheap, simplistic gameplay. Gameplay takes precedence over theme of course, but I think that there can be more intuitive ways to keep challenging the player besides a horde of super-zombies that can directly challenge your defenses.

A combination of survival mechanics that won't just let you stay in your base indefinitely, RNG sprinkling, a more modest progression curve, fine-tuning of traps (as you said) and looting distribution, better AI, *some* theme-friendly strategically spawned special zombies (even if they have to be bulletsponges) and bandits would do the trick just as well imo, while also being more engaging than what we have now.

I use the ingame armor because I equip zombies with armor depending on their health. A zombie with low health can be naked or wearing only a t-shirt, a zombie with a lot of heatlh wears full armor. So it makes sense when you can't kill a zombie with a bullet to the head. Isn't that clever (hey, at least my wife thought so).

I made a little script to randomize clothing and colors

, who knows how to use PHP can find it here: https://pastebin.com/NWJkwa6N . You have to call the function "archetype", $mode needs to be not 1 (1 = only 1 random archetype is created), age needs to be "adult" -> I'm not sure if "child" is fully working. $Gender is "male" or "female". $name will be the name of the archetype and $health, well, that's a big secret. The function returns a variable $composer that contains the archetype, with the name $name.
Something like this should be in the game. It should create zombies actually at random, so no two zombies look the same. With my repertoire of over 23,000 different zombies, I use 1,800+ archetypes and already it is kinda rare to see the same zombie twice on screen. When I use UMAs, I usually run the script before a play session, so it's always fresh. Super neat. Once the UMAs have spawned, the game runs pretty good on my i5 with a 1050 and 16 GB RAM, but there is a noticable stutter constantly, because new zombies spawn constantly.

- - - Updated - - -
Click to expand...
That's super neat indeed. And yes, at least zombies wearing armor makes it more plausible for them to be bullet-sponges. I think that even if the devs have given up on UMA zombies, they will surely somehow diversify models in the future.

Bandits are a bit boring I think, as a "theme", and you can't really mix them in with the zombies on horde night. I wouldn't mind if they would use a generally more paranormal lore and add demons and whatnot. Not gonna happen, I assume though.
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While I kind of agree, they could be used as a supplementary threat, with a purpose to either weaken/sabotage your defenses before a horde night, snipe you from afar from a camouflage spot they set up that you will have to search for and destroy before a horde night and much more - there is potential to make them interesting.

 
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What you mean by "still racist"?

-Morloc
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Probably a mistype, incidentally giving this thread more bumps, meant to say that zombie stereotypes are unrealistic and not immersive and wondered what they will do about this in the future - if they are thinking of a way to randomize models or are just planning to make new ones.

Edit: Regarding this, like I said in the OP, if hordes didn't just increase the number of special zombies during gamestages and instead special zombies were more rare and impactful mechanics-wise, the clone (clown for irradiated) horde wouldn't be so obvious.

Further more if for example special zombie models were not so "identifiable" like this guy for instance when it comes for exploding zombies, or like the lickers on resident evil (whose face was mostly a brain and all brains are the same anyway), they would look less like clones of each other.

 
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