Dear TFP, What are you doing?

[7DaysToBreakTheGame]

Let’s jump into it. This is not some angry rant, nor am I some troll who jumped into the game within the last year, heard about prior features that used to be in the game, and got upset because they feel like they missed out on the game in its prime. (Despite that being a pretty valid complaint)

I am a simple man, 24, who started playing your game about a decade ago. Who’s been following the game since it still had mostly cubic objects. Your game was quite literally part of my childhood, my teen years were partially spent playing this game and dodging landmines in the wasteland with friends.

I had to stop playing for years because of the fiasco with Telltale Games, because you were still so small you had to outsource to another publisher to get your game on consoles. I did not complain despite being screwed over and forced to buy the game a second time, I waited and bid my time for 1.0 to release just hoping you guys would decide to release the game again. I didn’t care if I had to pay for it.

I bought this game again, and I’ve now sunk a few hundred hours into it, and everyone is right. You guys POORLY switched genres. I’m genuinely sad, I remember back in my childhood you guys were just excited about getting new features into the game and watching it grow.

You didn’t have some wild concept for the ideal “identity” of the game besides it being a sandbox zombie survival/base defense game, and you didn’t really care what other said.

Now, the developers are toxic, they treat the community as though they’re lucky the game even exists, they frequently ban and silence people who do not like the direction the game goes in, people that are like ME, genuine fans of many years. The moderators of their platforms and diehard fans of the game series unite to create an air of toxic positivity surrounding the game, where any “negative” discourse surrounding it is immediately silenced or dogpiled by fans. (Much of this negative discourse ends up being genuine criticisms of the game, FYI, thought that was worth noting. There are a fair share of haters but the majority of comments I see are dissapointed nostalgic people)

This is where I will be a little… personal. But it’s still true.

You guys are NOT Minecraft. This is NOT the kind of game with the identity that Mojang has fostered, where you can hide behind your concept of what you believe the “identity” of the game is, such as how Minecraft refuses to add certain features such as vertical redstone or slabs.

Minecraft is a very lucky case of success, and when you guys look at fans asking for simple concepts being added to the game like animal farms for example, and tell them outright that you will not be doing it just simply because you don’t want to, that makes fans resent you.

We want a game we want to play, we respect your vision for the game, but game development has ALWAYS been about compromise. Games that have a rigid concept of their identity and refuse to compromise beyond that do not succeed nearly as much, so why do you all mistakenly believe that yours will? Especially when you’ve actually already diverted from your original identity, simplifying game features that the original fans flocked to the game for and complexifying others that nobody asked for. (I.E. taking away smell mechanics, dumbing down noise mechanics, removing the ability to find specific gun parts, and continually improving the zombie AI to unnecessary and unrealistic degrees that make the game more tedious than fun)

The player base is now understandably peeved about 2.0, and it’s part of the reason I am making this right now. But I can always expect TFP to deflect and blame other people, rather than addressing what the community actually wants.

I guess when you develop a game for over a decade, it leads you to develop an ego and belief that you know exactly what’s right for it.

Anyways, here’s hoping this doesn’t get taken down by mods or something, because I feel like it’s a reasonable assessment of the situation, and this isn’t just a big feels reaction post for the sake of being a big feels reaction post.

I and many others have a lot of genuine criticisms about the way this game is going, and if they continue to go the way they are, they will alienate their prior fanbase and end up with a mixed bag of a game that doesn’t complete half of its roadmap. (Keep in mind that they were already multiple months late with 2.0 which in turn is going to affect all the other updates, so now the roadmap is out of date and up in the air)

Anyways, it’s been a good one, hope a dev sees this and it really makes them actually think, because even if this isn’t indicative of how you guys genuinely feel about the game, this is how a lot of your community feels right now.

Just thought I should throw in at least something positive. I feel like the games perk system has done nothing but improve for the most part, keep doing what you’re doing there.

(This post was reposted in entirety from Reddit with only minor changes, I am the original author of the Reddit post, it was rewritten rather than linked here because I am admittedly ignorant of the rules so I’m trying to avoid issues with mods censoring this.)

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Regarding the bans and silencing: Where does this happen? Because there is a bunch of posts here, in their official forum, including posts from myself, that do not like the direction the game went and we are all still here.´

My bet is those people that got banned voiced their opinion with a lot of insults. I bet i would recognize a lot of them from the steam forums, there is a bunch over there that simply arent able to tell their opinion without insulting the devs, left, right and center.

One guy came here crying that he got banned on the discord. Because he shared an exploit, which is a bannable offense in pretty much every games discord or forum. But he cried he got banned because he critizized the game.

 

[7DaysToBreakTheGame]

Regarding the bans and silencing: Where does this happen? Because there is a bunch of posts here, in their official forum, including posts from myself, that do not like the direction the game went and we are all still here.´

My bet is those people that got banned voiced their opinion with a lot of insults. I bet i would recognize a lot of them from the steam forums, there is a bunch over there that simply arent able to tell their opinion without insulting the devs, left, right and center.

One guy came here crying that he got banned on the discord. Because he shared an exploit, which is a bannable offense in pretty much every games discord or forum. But he cried he got banned because he critizized the game.

Okay? So do you have anything to actually say about anything I wrote rather than nitpicking this one thing that is easily corroborated by the community itself?

 

[theFlu]

they frequently ban and silence people who do not like the direction the game goes in,

I've been bitching and moaning about the direction of the game on these forums for about 6-7 alphas now. Earned myself a couple time-outs, and I'm proud of both - and they were well deserved

 

[7DaysToBreakTheGame]

I've been bitching and moaning about the direction of the game on these forums for about 6-7 alphas now. Earned myself a couple time-outs, and I'm proud of both - and they were well deserved

I don’t promote toxicity towards the game because I still enjoy it, but you do you.

I’d rather them hear unnecessarily harsh criticism than no criticism at all.

 

[theFlu]

I don’t promote toxicity towards the game because I still enjoy it, but you do you.

I guess I should clarify that I wasn't hurling insults at the game / devs for those infractions; just broke other rules in more or less creative ways

And I personally agree on the "insults are also criticism"; but I get the desire to not have a cesspool of a forum - that way the devs may actually bother reading them once in a while. And they do.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Regarding the bans and silencing: Where does this happen?

In the unwritten rules and mob mentality of the anonymous Internet. Were I employed by TFP, I'd be a little more concerned with the fact that prominent and longtime players say they don't post here because it's a toxic (positivity) environment with just a few people (and even some moderators) only out to shoot down anything anyone else says whether sensible, right or wrong -- usually based on personal preference. Developers like faatal, otoh, have been nothing but accommodating, so I'm not sure where players are getting the idea the developers are out to get them. They want to kill you in-game, of course, because survival is the name of the game and, if you don't survive, well...time to change tactics. And speaking of time to change tactics: I get the palpable sense of changing genres mid-devleopment. There are business considerations to take into account as well, but I'm not sure the entire gaming industry isn't suffering from trying to keep up with the Joneses just for the sake of it.

The publishers of Skyrim takes one look at the LOTR triology and say, "Make an environment like that. Maybe people won't notice how much of the roleplay we're stripping out of roleplay." Skyrim is financially successful, so Bandi Namco comes to FromSoftware and says, "Make an enviroment like that. Maybe people won't notice it's filled with identical ruins and rises." Myasaki takes one look at Blackreach and says to himself, "I can top that." Ergo, Siofra River complete with "Dwemer" lifts scattered around the game world.

I have to laugh every time someone says, "This game is unique." Maybe it was once. I've no idea.

 

[zztong]

I’d rather them hear unnecessarily harsh criticism than no criticism at all.

I'm not sure that approach works out well. I fear the trouble with unnecessarily harsh criticism is it could shutdown future communication. One payload gets to land, but less and less after that as the author gets tuned out.

If I were to compose a response to your original message that packed a bunch of heat, would you be more likely to tune me out, or deeply ponder my message?

Regarding your original message, I respect that you have an opinion. I read it. I don't fully understand it. I think you inaccurately characterize the Devs and their motivations. I think when you talk of the community you really mean your opinion of the community based on what you've read. That could involve selection bias. I'm neither a Sociologist nor a researcher so I won't try to opine on if the forums here, on Reddit, and on Steam are even representative. What I do suspect though is if you were sitting on hard data you would have presented it as that would be persuasive.

Just the same, welcome to the forums. I mean that not only for you but for all the new faces that have shown up over the past few weeks.

 

[EvilPolygons]

To be fair, these forums are far, far, faaaaaar less toxic than Steam or Reddit. The Steam forums are basically an open sewer. Reddit isn't quite as bad, but there's still a lot of hatewagoning going on over there.

If you look through the posts here from the past couple of weeks, you'll see plenty of very honest criticism. No one is getting banned for speaking their mind unless they don't know how to communicate without being abusive.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Okay? So do you have anything to actually say about anything I wrote rather than nitpicking this one thing that is easily corroborated by the community itself?

I am not nitpicking. I am telling you that they don´t ban or silence people who criticize the game as you claim they do. Otherwise some of us here would be banned on the discord, here and on steam. It is a fact. Just telling you that you shouldn´t believe people who aren´t able to have a normal conversation.

I don´t have time to read that wall of text, game is quite popular most people are happy with it, as the player numbers clearly show.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

What I do suspect though is if you were sitting on hard data you would have presented it as that would be persuasive

The thing about "hard data" is that it is literally incapable of conveying how people feel about the direction of any game or franchise or, especially, proving a game (or its writing or what have you) is "objectively bad," despite how many try to prove the unprovable. And that's actually part and parcel of the fact that our "science based civilization" demands numbers and statistics and provable points to discuss and/or decide on anything, including a shared vision and path into the future among humanity as a whole. Not kidding. Reductionism rules the day and, since we're not machines, that proves exceptionally problematic.

On a smaller scale, that's why there are video essays galore musing about the direction of some of our favorite games and franchises and subjective impressions, feelings and opinions made objective, i.e. accessible to others who may or may not feel the same. It's generally verboten even to express them in our "science based civilization," but the human spirit will not be contained and, with the advent of the Internet, there's now an outlet for the repressed, which has pretty obviously returned with a vengeance.

The better essays are not trying to persuade anyone of anything, but merely relating the video creators' impressions, which people are then free to nod along with or not. Noah Gervais' (now unlisted) retrospective of Fallout 76 (unlisted because he's done one on the entire series), is among the best I've ever seen. It summed up and put into words how a lot of people are feeling about the modern direction of the Fallout franchise. I quoted it widely and, hopefully, convinced Noah that it could coexist with the retrospective of the entire series, else my (and others') links to it would be broken. And there are others lamenting FromSoftware's venture into open world games, for example, and the supposed "dumbing down" of the Dark Souls formula, etc., when the formula has just been made more accessible, as far as I can tell, with features like Spirit Ashes. (Those who prefer to face a boss solo don't have to use either them or NPC summons. They're just there for people who want to use them. Yet Dark Souls purists tell them they shouldn't be using them.) The jury appears to be out as to whether FromSoftware's boss AI is actually having more fun than players when players have to stand (or roll) around and wait until a boss' incessant, flashy, "spectacular" (i.e. more spectacle than substance) combos are finished to get in a single hit. And stuff like this characterizes the "geist" of any and every gaming community.

I think you inaccurately characterize the Devs and their motivations.

Which none of us know, but I suspect that's because TFP is not that great at communicating with the community as some other development studios are. I think GNS touched on that in his video titled, '7 Days to Die Has Problems.' The community is largely in the dark about specific "features" until they appear. TFP could be more forthcoming.

 

[theFlu]

and the supposed "dumbing down" of the Dark Souls formula, etc., when the formula has just been made more accessible

Dark Souls, accessible. You say that like it's a good thing.

 

[meganoth]

I don’t promote toxicity towards the game because I still enjoy it, but you do you.

I’d rather them hear unnecessarily harsh criticism than no criticism at all.

One of the developers said they don't read those websites anymore because there are too many toxic posts there.

So no, toxic posts (or what you euphemistically call "unnecessarily harsh critisism") effectively are not read by the developers. Defeating their purpose I assume. People just assume they need to be more hostile to be heard amongst all the other hostile posts while readers learn to avoid such posts to keep their sanity.

And look, how strange, your post is still here even though it heavily critizises the devs and the game. Maybe it is because it doesn't break any rules on the side?

 

[Javabean867]

Omg, that was a wall of text. No Dev has time to read all that.

You are better off picking 1 thing you don't like. And making a well thought out post about that topic. Make it short, and to the point. Do not assign motive to the developers, because you can't read minds.

And finally, when a bunch of people here do not agree with your post, do not devolve into name calling.

If you do that you'll have a chance the developers will read it. If you continue down the path you have already started, you won't get anywhere.

 

[zztong]

The thing about "hard data" is that it is literally incapable of conveying how people feel about the direction of any game or franchise or, especially, proving a game (or its writing or what have you) is "objectively bad," despite how many try to prove the unprovable.

Qualitative research does this, so I wouldn't say "incapable", but I would certainly acknowledge the effort involved, the methods needed, and the reachable population do seem like issues.

I would clarify that the heart of my message is that when people express their opinions, it's probably best to speak about what they know. They know how they feel. They don't know the motivations or thoughts of others, be them Developers or the community at large. I certainly don't begrudge anyone the ability to express their opinion, whatever their motivation might be.

Which none of us know, but I suspect that's because TFP is not that great at communicating with the community as some other development studios are. I think GNS touched on that in his video titled, '7 Days to Die Has Problems.' The community is largely in the dark about specific "features" until they appear. TFP could be more forthcoming.

Perhaps. That opinion is more likely to be heard as it isn't 'unnecessarily harsh', though I still translate "The community is largely" into "I feel." If I were to express an opinion I too might also desire improved communication.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

A community manager would have been a good idea tbh. Not uncommon even for way smaller games and studios. Maybe for Bloodmoons and future TFP games,

 

[Sapient6]

And look, how strange, your post is still here even though it heavily critizises the devs and the game. Maybe it is because it doesn't break any rules on the side?

Puts me in mind of the parade of public figures decrying how "cancel culture" has "canceled" them and now they can't say [thing they are on their public platform saying for the 1 millionth time].

 

[Dark Sun]

I don’t promote toxicity towards the game because I still enjoy it, but you do you.

I’d rather them hear unnecessarily harsh criticism than no criticism at all.

There in lies the problem. Where is the difference between harsh criticism and honesty, and just outright toxic behaviour? For many, there is no line, and it's a seamless transition from one side to the other.

In the community's defence, this is what always will happen when you do a complete U-turn in your game's development, before official release or otherwise. Rupturing your fanbase is a given, and what you're left with are the people who joined the title after the switcharoo and have little to no context on what came before, and bitter nostalgic players who feel they've been "ripped off". It's not just rose tinted glasses playing here, A16 and A17 are objectively two different games, version count aside. We would see a similar result if by next update, Indiestone decided to take the direction of Project Zomboid into an MMO.

Regarding 7D2D's transformation into a light RPG, I suspect either one of two things: either this was the dev's plan all along, or they deliberated on it, sensed the well was drying up for players who are really into the survival genre, and made the pivot to save the game - which, criticism and reviews aside, if you look at the Steam charts, in 1.0 the game was doing better than ever. Unless I'm mistaken, there's a bit of a nose dive in 2.0, but 7D2D is objectively winding down at this point both in development and interest, so I don't see this as a 'failing' in any way if accurate, just the natural life cycle of any product.

So on one hand, they're not wrong. (It's unfortunate for their reputation that some bad apples ruin the bunch though.) On the other, the primary voices one encounters online are these bitter nostalgic people, many of whom still love the game and their defilement of the current direction comes from that exact passion, and many have not yet come to grips that certain features are never coming back. It's probably to do with the multiple stages of grief...

 

[Dark Sun]

So yes, you can be angry. You can be bitter. You can be resentful. Those are all valid feelings, especially regarding the situation. You were promised one thing, and you got another. (Perhaps early access titles are not for you then? Not putting the blame on anyone, just a "lesson learned" kind of deal. Rust was once a zombie survival game, look where it is now. Totally different.)

So long as you keep your emotions in check and don't act like a donkeyhead, you won't get banned. Critiqued, maybe shunned, but not banned. Well, unless you also post exploits on a Discord server. That's a big no-no. *wave of the finger*

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Are people really surprised that the game is a genre mix with RPG, FPS, Towerdefense and Survival? That was clear since at least steam release in 2013. Which should also make it clear that it might lean into one of the genres more heavily than others. That was mentioned so many times over the years on pretty much every platform. You really didn´t need to pay much attention to know that.