PC Biome Update Gripe (want dev insight)

[LuvShiramine]

forced linear game progression is a terrible idea, it just forces you to play 1 way "go here, do this, then craft this to have to do this" having to be equipped to enter a biome that gives better loot and offers harder gameplay like certain environmental hazards such as moving slower in a sand storm or not being able to see in the burnt forest is cool though, grounded did something similar with the haze biome and the bbq zone 

 TFP have already locked getting higher tier items in harder poi's basically, AND if you're in a hard biome it buffs your loot more was that not enough to encourage exploration ?? its simply just an option to go to the harder pois if you want better loot faster, or you can farm resources and components whatever you chose. Also i like how TFP have said they wanted to "encourage exploration" but keeping the biomes the same and then forcing the player jump through more hoops- (quite literally forcing because the loot is nerfed if you don't) -is THEE most anti exploration thing I've ever heard in my life but getting that better loot at a faster rate is OPTIONAL, and that's what's cool about a sandbox game.

now the random loot cap ?? its just a gimmicky feature that doesn't inherently make sense unless you are told and that is confusing like obviously the bigger more dangerous buildings are going to have better loot, but HOLD ON BUDDY you're in the forest too bad !! its capped you get a chest of mid and garbage !!! like what bro ?? that doesn't even make sense, from a realism point ESPECIALLY because that higher tier loot is locked behind a harder poi and HIGHER TIER CHEST ????
i understand its optional but atleast the loot cap shouldn't even be in the game regardless and thats not because it doesn't sit with ME right but because the more random gimmicky mechanics- (as in it doesn't make any sense and you wouldn't have figured it out or understood it fully until the game told you or you strongly noticed, like for example rage mode on zombies, like they take fall damage so their ai targeting changes ??? like its so random lol, am i against it ? no. is it random and doesn't really make sense ? yes.) -you add to your game the harder it is to get into for new players, and its not even like that change adds any depth to your game if anything IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE IDEA OF A SANDBOX !!! anyways if anyone actually read this fully thank you for listening and i hope you agree/understand a fair bit.

 

[BFT2020]

TFP have already locked getting higher tier items in harder poi's basically, AND if you're in a hard biome it buffs your loot more was that not enough to encourage exploration ??

That statement is not true.  Higher Tier POIs are not the only POIS to get higher tier gear.  You can get higher tier gear in lower tier POIs.  I have found T3 gear in T1/T2 POIs once I have my loot stage high enough.

They have stated that there will be two methods of going into the harder biomes  - 1) items that will temporary allow you to go into the biomes to loot / perform quests or 2) eventually completing a challenge that will permanently allow you to go into the biome with no penalties.  Since you have two options to enter the next higher biome, it doesn't feel like there are hoops to jump through or that we are being prevented from looting in a higher hoot stage area early game, we just have to make a bit more effort in order to do so.

Lets be honest, in early game once you find the Snow biome or desert biome, there wasn't a challenge really to be able to rush your loot stage to get higher tier items early game.  By the sounds of what is coming out in 2.0, you now have to do a bit of extra work in order to supercharge your loot stage.

 

[meganoth]

I agree with BFT, the challenge in higher biomes wasn't so pronounced that it prevented anyone from simply going into higher biomes, and the locations of the other biomes are not a secret as well. Also until now a player could just stay in forest and wait for his gamestage to increase to eventually get the same loot. Yes, that is more sandboxy while forcing people to move on is more about encouraging exploration. Pick one. TFP picked the latter, any player can pick the former instead if he turns off that feature.

So now you will have to craft a pill and you can enter only for a limited time. That is a mechanic that reminds me of Enshrouded and it works very well there. I would suggest to try it out. It really creates an urgency to the visits to the harder biomes until you have the kit.

Immersion wise, the forest biome is the easiest biome, with presumably the highest survival rate. It follows that a lot more people searched for valuable loot there and all the best items were already found. Conversely the more dangerous an area is the more interesting items were never found and because of a higher death rate there adventurers may even leave new valuable items when they are killed in there.

In almost every game in existence the best loot can always be found in the most dangerous areas. And IMHO it is actually quite reasonable that it is this way

 

[Adam the Waster]

Immersion wise, the forest biome is the easiest biome, with presumably the highest survival rate. It follows that a lot more people searched for valuable loot there and all the best items were already found. Conversely the more dangerous an area is the more interesting items were never found and because of a higher death rate there adventurers may even leave new valuable items when they are killed in there.

In almost every game in existence the best loot can always be found in the most dangerous areas. And IMHO it is actually quite reasonable that it is this way

My main problem is aside from the desert and snow.  It's the most natural biome I would want to live In 

The burnt forest is cool for some builds I wanna do

And the wasteland is my favorite biome 

I do miss the old biomes I think if they had the old biomes then progression would be better imo

 

[meganoth]

My main problem is aside from the desert and snow.

I don't understand that sentence, at all. What is your main problem again?

 

[Adam the Waster]

I don't understand that sentence, at all. What is your main problem again?

Sorry didn't get my c4 to wake me up. 

But my main issue is that the forest is the best looking biome. It's looks nice, and screams "yeah I wanna live here" 

But Loot wise you are not rewarded for that. And that's OK but imo

The forest should have been a 1 skull or a half skull. While something like the plains should have been the starting biome 

That way people can have there cake and eat it too

 

[Riamus]

forced linear game progression is a terrible idea, it just forces you to play 1 way "go here, do this, then craft this to have to do this" having to be equipped to enter a biome that gives better loot and offers harder gameplay like certain environmental hazards such as moving slower in a sand storm or not being able to see in the burnt forest is cool though, grounded did something similar with the haze biome and the bbq zone 

 TFP have already locked getting higher tier items in harder poi's basically, AND if you're in a hard biome it buffs your loot more was that not enough to encourage exploration ?? its simply just an option to go to the harder pois if you want better loot faster, or you can farm resources and components whatever you chose. Also i like how TFP have said they wanted to "encourage exploration" but keeping the biomes the same and then forcing the player jump through more hoops- (quite literally forcing because the loot is nerfed if you don't) -is THEE most anti exploration thing I've ever heard in my life but getting that better loot at a faster rate is OPTIONAL, and that's what's cool about a sandbox game.

now the random loot cap ?? its just a gimmicky feature that doesn't inherently make sense unless you are told and that is confusing like obviously the bigger more dangerous buildings are going to have better loot, but HOLD ON BUDDY you're in the forest too bad !! its capped you get a chest of mid and garbage !!! like what bro ?? that doesn't even make sense, from a realism point ESPECIALLY because that higher tier loot is locked behind a harder poi and HIGHER TIER CHEST ????
i understand its optional but atleast the loot cap shouldn't even be in the game regardless and thats not because it doesn't sit with ME right but because the more random gimmicky mechanics- (as in it doesn't make any sense and you wouldn't have figured it out or understood it fully until the game told you or you strongly noticed, like for example rage mode on zombies, like they take fall damage so their ai targeting changes ??? like its so random lol, am i against it ? no. is it random and doesn't really make sense ? yes.) -you add to your game the harder it is to get into for new players, and its not even like that change adds any depth to your game if anything IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE IDEA OF A SANDBOX !!! anyways if anyone actually read this fully thank you for listening and i hope you agree/understand a fair bit.

I would point out that the loot caps and biome hazards have been stated to be optional.  You can disable them if you don't like them.  For people who do like them, they'll have the option to use them.  Just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people won't either.

Meganoth has a good way of looking at loot caps as well.  The idea that people have already looted the best stuff because it's the easiest and safest place to be makes sense.  But whether or not you care about there being a story-like reason for it or just want to look the best stuff without leaving the forest is just preference.  Since you can turn that stuff off, it isn't a big deal.

Also, don't forget that sandbox is not the only category for this game.  This game is only really sandbox if you turn on creative mode.  Just because you can do a lot of things doesn't make it sandbox.  Sandbox is generally used for a game that lets you do stuff without cost... for example, you don't need to gather resources to build something.  You can just build it for free.  That's just one example, but it isn't normally applied to a game that just has a ton of stuff to do, but where you have to actually gather resources or level up or whatever to do it.  This game has always been, and will always be, a game of mixed genres.  That means that things that fit one genre may not fit another and you'll have conflicts between what is "best" for the genre(s) that you prefer and what is "best" for the other genres that others might prefer.

And, just to point out, I personally will try these biome changes out and see what I think of them, but I doubt I'll play more than a couple of games with them enabled.  After that, I feel like (for me) they will become nothing but an unnecessary gating mechanic and I'll disable them for all future games.  That might change if I decide I like how it works, of course.  But even though I don't really think I'll use those features, I see nothing wrong with them being there as an option for those who like them.

 

[avalonnn]

I'm okay with anything as long as it's optional. I love how customizable this game is. 

 

[elektrohund]

After playing games like Valheim I've come to enjoy biome as a form of progression a lot as it gives you a strong sense of "moving forward".

I think this update is basically a continuation of the previous one where traders were being made biome specific. We can only assume that all this is preparation for the upcomming story that will  be added in the final update of the game.

 

[FranticDan]

I do miss the old biomes I think if they had the old biomes then progression would be better imo

Rest in Peace, plains biome

 

[meganoth]

Sorry didn't get my c4 to wake me up. 

But my main issue is that the forest is the best looking biome. It's looks nice, and screams "yeah I wanna live here" 

But Loot wise you are not rewarded for that. And that's OK but imo

The forest should have been a 1 skull or a half skull. While something like the plains should have been the starting biome 

That way people can have there cake and eat it too

I agree partly. In my last game I had a sub-base in burned, but the always-grey did not really lift my spirits . Problematic for me were the dark interiors though, day and night I usually needed to turn on headlamp or night-vision-goggles, with either a big disadvantage for my stealth character or reduced field-of-vision. 

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

forced linear game progression is a terrible idea

This has been brought up many times before. It's not likely to change, but there are reasons the linear additions might at least be reserved to Navezgane and, possibly, the set RWG maps of various sizes that ship with the game.

forcing people to move on is more about encouraging exploration

I'd have to disagree. The keyword is "forcing," the hand of the devs, which would better be invisible, glaring and unmistakable, imo. There is no exploration of anything to be had in this game aside from the relatively closed POIs themselves. The "open world" is vacuous, empty of anything interesting or helpful aside from flowers and ore veins and litter which can easily be found on the perimeter of the towns and cities. Most head straight for the towns and cities, regardless of biome, both for that reason and the fact that the means to progress one's avatar have been exessively concentrated there.

I believe Riamus has suggested an option to turn said linearity on and off in the settings, but I get the impression that's far easier said than done and think the linearity would better be reserved to the Navezgane map and forthcoming story mode. A "Story Mode" (or similar) option on the main menu would suffice while player-initiated RWG maps are kept completely random for unrestricted freeplay. If wanderlust should strike a player's fancy at any point, they can "move on" or dip in and out of the various biomes of their own accord. Forcing players out of one biome and into another and/or sticking them with a vendor they don't like is hardly an "incentive to explore," imo.

In fairness, the vast majority of "open world" games suffer these same issues. Elden Ring is the premier example that comes to mind. Its overworld is mind-numbingly boring in my experience -- a painstakingly beautiful painting, but nonetheless huge landscape merely dotted here and there with identical ruins or rises or mini-forts with nothing of interest in them or at least nothing that suits a player's combat build and fashion soul in any given playthrough. Perhaps needless to say, it's the legacy dungeons in Elden Ring that prove interesting in and of themselves. Otherwise, the vast majority of the player's time is spent literally "hurtling about on a spectral steed." 

Handcrafted, self-contained settings and stories with interesting characters and visual/aural background worldbuilding long were the draw and encouragement to explore in game series like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout and The Witcher. The "holy grail" among industry insiders, atm, however is the fully automated and/or AI-generated "infinite game" that never ends, ntm nothing but murder-hobo combat, which I personally find utterly uninteresting and unengaging.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

making people travel to get what they need is 100% a good thing

 

[Space4Ace]

Rest in Peace, plains biome

The Plains biome was my favorite in the older alphas. The sounds were creepy and it was a great place to live in. They should definitely bring it back and have a new trader to go with it. Maybe the trader could be an hard ass female with a rough and scratchy voice, speaking badly about Jen and others (jealous of Jen obviously).

 

[theFlu]

making people travel to get what they need is 100% a good thing

Yeh, but only when done right. For a bad current example, I don't really enjoy traveling 3-4 km just for a T4 quest. The meta difference being, there's no "reason" for it to be far, it's the same thing as the T4 next door; but if there's a good world-lore reason for the travel, absolutely.

 

[Riamus]

In fairness, the vast majority of "open world" games suffer these same issues. Elden Ring is the premier example that comes to mind. Its overworld is mind-numbingly boring in my experience -- a painstakingly beautiful painting, but nonetheless huge landscape merely dotted here and there with identical ruins or rises or mini-forts with nothing of interest in them or at least nothing that suits a player's combat build and fashion soul in any given playthrough. Perhaps needless to say, it's the legacy dungeons in Elden Ring that prove interesting in and of themselves. Otherwise, the vast majority of the player's time is spent literally "hurtling about on a spectral steed." 

Handcrafted, self-contained settings and stories with interesting characters and visual/aural background worldbuilding long were the draw and encouragement to explore in game series like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout and The Witcher. The "holy grail" among industry insiders, atm, however is the fully automated and/or AI-generated "infinite game" that never ends, ntm nothing but murder-hobo combat, which I personally find utterly uninteresting and unengaging.

Yeah, this is the downside of generated worlds in games.  A handcrafted world allows placing things around the world in ways that incentivize exploration and make the entire map interesting (at least if they do a good job with crafting the world).  But a generated world ends up with stuff getting placed randomly around the map and you don't get that same effect.  Now, maybe years from now when AI is better, then AI can be used to generate a map that is at least similar to a handcrafted map and provide the same effect.  But for now, when AI isn't used and we just generate maps using math and RNG, you just don't get that.

Of course, a generated map allows you to have a different map every game, which can't be done with handcrafted worlds.  So there are benefits to both options.  For true RPGs, I'd prefer a handcrafted map.  They need a cohesive feel to them that makes sense as your character develops and a reason to explore the world.  Other games, including ARPGs, are fine with generated worlds.  This game is kind of in the middle, imo.  It could definitely benefit from being handcrafted in order to get you out exploring and wanting to see the entire map.  Yet it is meant to be played many times and a limited number of maps leads to being bored quickly in that situation.  I do question why they don't do some special things with Navesgane since that is partially handcrafted (towns are), such as adding hidden features or other things around the map.  But that does mean Navesgane has things no other map does, so maybe that's why they don't do it.

 

[d3.nephalem]

I do not really understand, how TFP want to manage challenge vs reward in 2.0 with current system.
Currently we have top tiers weapons and armors craftable after reading a certain number of magazines.
How you exactly want to force me to go to harder biome, clear harder POI, to have chance to find top tier weapon?
Why i have to waste ammo and risk death? I can farm magazines and craft one.

You guys need to put heads together and do it well.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I do question why they don't do some special things with Navesgane since that is partially handcrafted (towns are), such as adding hidden features or other things around the map.

That is the thought that made me attempt something. But I could not get the terrain to be acceptable

enough for my idea. It to have a random gen map, with Navezgane centered. So you get both in one.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

I don't really enjoy traveling 3-4 km just for a T4 quest. 

A16 and prior there was no quest system, people actually had to travel to get anything. The quest system is something i personally would be happy to see removed.

 

[theFlu]

A16 and prior there was no quest system, people actually had to travel to get anything.

Yeh, cruising around for calipers / crucible had its charm, at least it was for a decent goal

... Dunno why that opinion would deserve a dislike, so have a like to balance =D