PC Alpha 17 and PVP mode

Unless he provides an aggregation of (assumed) data (which I have btw) that debunks what I have said, his word is not worth more then mine. Its even worth less because I at least gave some figures (and used the smalles amount of PvP players, while the maximum amount is probably closer to 15 or 20%)
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Fixed that for you.

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I'd like to see PvP values when A18 drops and not at some random point in the patch lifecycle. I think PvP is most alive in the first month after a patch drop. Also, I'd like to see documentation on how "live data over the weekend" is calculated. I'm guessing whoever collected the data didn't do extremely thorough research regarding the ruleset of every server with active players. If you just look at servers with PvP in the title and assume everything else is PvE, you could seriously underrepresent the PvP community. A lot of servers claim to be neither PvE nor PvP but function with free for all rules. Likewise, some are definitely PvP and some are definitely PvE. I think more high-quality research right after the new alpha drops will show dramatically higher numbers than 3%. Maybe not 30% but definitely in the 10%+ region. Even 3% is more fair than madmole's 1% though.
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Basically, MM is the one most likely to have good, accurate statistical information. The rest of us have to resort to imperfect collection methods which are loaded with assumptions and bias.

Even if MM was being hyperbolic, what he said probably still is more accurate than anyone else.

 
What he said was accurate and how he said it was offensive. He used it to belittle a specific person who had scorned him, but ended up belittling an entire community and that's why everyone here is being uppity about percents.

 
What he said was accurate and how he said it was offensive. He used it to belittle a specific person who had scorned him, but ended up belittling an entire community and that's why everyone here is being uppity about percents.
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Strange that this does not seem to be the driving argument then. I mean, if that's the case, people wouldn't be quoting percents back (even if they were accurate), but would be saying, "We may be small, but that doesn't mean we are worthless!" You said something to that effect once, but Viktoriusiii hasn't (as far as I can tell).

Anyway, I'll take your olive branch: MM was right, and the PVP crowd are mad that MM doesn't seem to care about you. Will you stop posting bogus statistics now?

Edit: Upon reflection, I suppose this is a classic conflict between logic and emotion. People have an emotional response to a logical choice (in this case, one conveyed with emotional force), and they try to justify their emotion with logic so as to meet on the same plane. In the end, though, emotion and logic cannot meet on the same plane, and the result is more anger and confusion and frustration on all sides.

 
Strange that this does not seem to be the driving argument then. I mean, if that's the case, people wouldn't be quoting percents back (even if they were accurate), but would be saying, "We may be small, but that doesn't mean we are worthless!" You said something to that effect once, but Viktoriusiii hasn't (as far as I can tell).
Anyway, I'll take your olive branch: MM was right, and the PVP crowd are mad that MM doesn't seem to care about you. Will you stop posting bogus statistics now?

Edit: Upon reflection, I suppose this is a classic conflict between logic and emotion. People have an emotional response to a logical choice (in this case, one conveyed with emotional force), and they try to justify their emotion with logic so as to meet on the same plane. In the end, though, emotion and logic cannot meet on the same plane, and the result is more anger and confusion and frustration on all sides.
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I mean, I never posted bogus statistics iirc. I posted a certain subset of statistics that suited my point, like considering active PvP players vs active PvE players at a particular stage in the patch lifecycle and intentionally not considering active SP players. I guess one could perceive me as "manipulating" statistics but I think of it as using a particular set of data in a specific way to support my argument. I'm not just vomiting out things like "50% of the 3 million owners actively play PvP," all of my claims have been legitimate as long as you subscribe to the frame of reference that I'm establishing. If someone says "50% of all fruit is thrown away" and I want to change the subject to specifically apples, and I claim that only 25% of apples are thrown away, you wouldn't say "but the fda knows how much fruit is thrown away and it is 50%." You also wouldn't say "but 75% of oranges are thrown away" to engage in the apple argument.

Yeah, I know PvP is a small community, but it's not as small as its made out to be, especially considering all ACTIVE players. And what if you considered total number of hours played in PvP vs total number of hours played in PvE. I KNOW madmole doesn't have these statistics because there's no way except through hard manual research to come up with these numbers. Like logging into every server and checking the pvp rules and counting how many active players are on at any given time and doing this methodically over a period of time. I said before, if 1000 people play 10 hours each and 10 people play 1000 hours each, they are weighted 50/50 in terms of actual play hours. So the 10 people are 1% but they make up 50% of all playtime, so they end up being a much larger group on a grand scale than they appear by being called "1% of all players"

 
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I mean, I never posted bogus statistics iirc. I posted a certain subset of statistics that suited my point, like considering active PvP players vs active PvE players at a particular stage in the patch lifecycle and intentionally not considering active SP players. I guess one could perceive me as "manipulating" statistics but I think of it as using a particular set of data in a specific way to support my argument. I'm not just vomiting out things like "50% of the 3 million owners actively play PvP," all of my claims have been legitimate as long as you subscribe to the frame of reference that I'm establishing. If someone says "50% of all fruit is thrown away" and I want to change the subject to specifically apples, and I claim that only 25% of apples are thrown away, you wouldn't say "but the fda knows how much fruit is thrown away and it is 50%." You also wouldn't say "but 75% of oranges are thrown away" to engage in the apple argument.
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You conclude that a person wouldn't engage the apple argument by talking about oranges, but the apple argument came in exactly as a supposed engagement of the fruit-as-a-whole argument. In other words, you've done the very thing that you reject as viable.

MM posted an absolute statistic about PVP players. You can argue the veracity of his number (if you have access to the same data and can challenge his interpretation of the data), or you can present an argument that the data set that he was using wasn't useful and present an alternative data set.

Admittedly, you have attempted to do the latter by arguing that PVP servers are best surveyed just after a release, but this fails on multiple fronts. 1) That plays exactly into MM's point that PVP isn't very popular (especially if he can show that non-PVP's popularity has less drop-off over the same period). 2) Presenting another data set isn't actually the same as showing why his data set isn't useful. 3) Your statistics are still not viable, that is, they are not gathered using the same tools that MM used. (In the vein of the rest of my post, 4) arguing for a different data set still doesn't do the work of effectively responding to the emotional slight that you felt.)

 
Guys it doesn't matter who said what and what stats are right wrong or made up, the important thing to keep in mind is that MM stated he wanted to make some positive improvements to PVP which he and the team will get to once they have their other more pressing priorities out of the way, on that note lets look beyond A17 initial release and work on what we would like as part of later A17 xxx releases, A18 or whatever, and yes I know MM said he wasn't sure if there would be a A18 before some nitpicking **** comes along and reminds me :)

 
...y'all should know that the people on my discord find it hilarious that the PvP group gets along so poorly that their own thread is imploding on itself...

C'mon, most of you are better than this, get a grip. =)

 
...y'all should know that the people on my discord find it hilarious that the PvP group gets along so poorly that their own thread is imploding on itself...
C'mon, most of you are better than this, get a grip. =)
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Crimson-Trace-Zombie-Grip-550x295.jpg

This do ?

 
...y'all should know that the people on my discord find it hilarious that the PvP group gets along so poorly that their own thread is imploding on itself...
C'mon, most of you are better than this, get a grip. =)
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If they were better than this, would they be shooting each other?

 
I'd like to see PvP values when A18 drops and not at some random point in the patch lifecycle. I think PvP is most alive in the first month after a patch drop. Also, I'd like to see documentation on how "live data over the weekend" is calculated. I'm guessing whoever collected the data didn't do extremely thorough research regarding the ruleset of every server with active players. If you just look at servers with PvP in the title and assume everything else is PvE, you could seriously underrepresent the PvP community. A lot of servers claim to be neither PvE nor PvP but function with free for all rules. Likewise, some are definitely PvP and some are definitely PvE. I think more high-quality research right after the new alpha drops will show dramatically higher numbers than 3%. Maybe not 30% but definitely in the 10%+ region. Even 3% is more fair than madmole's 1% though.
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the pool and discussion Sylen referred to are from 11\2017, shortly after A16.4 dropped

 
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