For instance, I need to read farming magazines to learn how to make seeds. Ok, it makes sense. But at the same time I won't learn how to make more crops. I thought the idea was to separate practical (i.e. crafting, cooking etc.) skills from combat skills, but apparently no. I still have to invest my skill points to fortitude and farming. It has no logic at all. The first progress system I remember (i.e. what you do is what you develop, e.g. chopping trees makes you better at chopping trees) was the best and I don't get it why it was replaced. But the second system, for better or worse at least had some logic. The A21 system is both dumb and not practical.
PC A21 Skill system has no logic at all
- Thread starter H7dek7
- Start date
Khalagar
Active member
I'm still hoping for a full attribute rework, because they are pretty illogical as a whole, and confusing to players. My friend has 700+ hours in the game and still makes comments that leads me to believe he doesn't understand them lol.
"I invested 10 points into strength, so I can carry more stuff!"
Nope, you just do more headshot damage with shotguns for some reason
"But I have 10 points in fortitude, so I'm a tank"
Nope, you just do more damage with an m60 for some reason
The names don't reflect anything relevant so they might as well just rename them to Perk Tree 1, Perk Tree 2, Perk Tree 3 etc
IMO Attributes as a whole need to be reworked from scratch so they actually make sense and reflect what is going on
The benefits of the above is that first of all, none of your points are wasted. It would also let them move the weapons and perks to a logical place, like putting all the ranged weapon skills in Perception, while Strength got the Melee ones, and Fortitude got the Explosives, and Agility got sneak related things etc. It would also let them move the perks around that make zero sense, like why the hell salvager is in perception or farming is in fortitude
Currently if you say "I want to do a playthrough using an m60 and a spear" you just . . . don't. The weapons are in two completely unrelated trees, and you'll be wasting your points on the attributes you are only getting partial value out of.
It's even worse if you say something like "I want to jump really high while using a spear" because then you have to waste all your points on the agility attribute which grants you absolutely nothing per point wasted. Not a single thing, because you aren't using the "on perk weapon" the devs try to force you to use
I'm in this exact situation right now where I want to have a small farm, which means I have to waste like 8 points into fortitude attribute (to get it to leve 5 or 6 or w/e) for zero return on investment, just to meet the criteria to get more food back from my farm. I get absolutely no benefit from "headshot damage with an m60" because I'm not using an m60 or knuckles
"I invested 10 points into strength, so I can carry more stuff!"
Nope, you just do more headshot damage with shotguns for some reason
"But I have 10 points in fortitude, so I'm a tank"
Nope, you just do more damage with an m60 for some reason
The names don't reflect anything relevant so they might as well just rename them to Perk Tree 1, Perk Tree 2, Perk Tree 3 etc
IMO Attributes as a whole need to be reworked from scratch so they actually make sense and reflect what is going on
- Perception - Each point in perception should increase headshot damage with all weapons
- Strength - Each point in strength should let you carry more items, basically just rebrand Pack Mule. That, or it should increase damage with melee weapons
- Fortitude - Should increase your health / regen / or resistance
- Agility - Should grant cardio or Parkour by default. Letting you run further or jump higher makes way more sense for agility than how much damage you do with a bow
- Intelligence - Each point should do something like reduce crafting costs for all items, or work like better barter and grant selling boosts
The benefits of the above is that first of all, none of your points are wasted. It would also let them move the weapons and perks to a logical place, like putting all the ranged weapon skills in Perception, while Strength got the Melee ones, and Fortitude got the Explosives, and Agility got sneak related things etc. It would also let them move the perks around that make zero sense, like why the hell salvager is in perception or farming is in fortitude
Currently if you say "I want to do a playthrough using an m60 and a spear" you just . . . don't. The weapons are in two completely unrelated trees, and you'll be wasting your points on the attributes you are only getting partial value out of.
It's even worse if you say something like "I want to jump really high while using a spear" because then you have to waste all your points on the agility attribute which grants you absolutely nothing per point wasted. Not a single thing, because you aren't using the "on perk weapon" the devs try to force you to use
I'm in this exact situation right now where I want to have a small farm, which means I have to waste like 8 points into fortitude attribute (to get it to leve 5 or 6 or w/e) for zero return on investment, just to meet the criteria to get more food back from my farm. I get absolutely no benefit from "headshot damage with an m60" because I'm not using an m60 or knuckles
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BFT2020
Well-known member
Those are great ideas....for a RPG. This is not a RPG though.
Thing is though, nothing is stopping you from using the M60 just because you haven't perked into it. Sure you are not as powerful as someone who specifically perked into Fortitude, but this mindset that you can only use the ranged weapons that you perked into is an internal issue which one approaches the game, not with the game itself. Shotguns used by my Agility character deal damage to the zombies just like the Strength player, just not as effectively.
Also, if you are building a small farm, you need just one point (or at most 3 points for LoTL2 and Tough guy glasses) to spend to improve your returns. You are getting 4 back (possibly up to 5 with LoTL2) each time you harvest and that is more than enough unless you are the farmer for a large group. Then you should be getting up to LoTL3 in that situation.
Riamus
Well-known member
I am not someone who specs into a single tree and never have. I use a combination of all trees based on what I want. Is it the most efficient option? No. Does it work fine in the game? Absolutely. I always use spears for melee and then later use pistols and then SMG for ranged or sometimes .44/desert vulture. For horde night, I usually use a sniper rifle once I have one or at least a tactical assault rifle. I put points into parkour, lucky looter, miner 69er/motherlode, the weapons I use, daring adventurer (in A20 also better barter but I think that's pointless in A21) and so on. In single player, I also put points into the advanced engineering and gas monkey and, eventually, living off the land. Sure, it takes longer to get certain skills up to max but I'm fine with the jack of all trades option and it works perfectly well. I may not be as high damage on a single thing as someone who specs only into one tree but I can still hold my own against whatever is sent at me so it really doesn't matter. This isn't a PVP game (for most people) and so it doesn't require being the best.
However.... I don't think that this is a perfect system. It is true that you are required to put points into something that you have no need of just to get something you do need. Of course, this happens a lot in games that have some kind of skill tree or tech tree or whatever where you want something down the tree and have no need of some precursor item. But it feels worse here. It's also true that what is put into each category (perception, fortitude, etc.) doesn't always make sense. I can live with that much at least. I don't expect any real change, though. So I just live with it.
Khalagar
Active member
How is it more RPG than the current system that's already in the game, it just makes the attributes make more sense by giving them the effects of perks that already exist(ed)
Sure, it works, it's just confusing and badly implemented. Rather than going "Well it kind of works" the question should be "why not just make it *actually* work"
The time investment from devs wouldn't even be that high, because they wouldn't even be adding anything new, all I'm suggesting is moving the existing perks around.
Agility just becomes Cardio, Fortitude becomes the damage resistance perk etc. That has nothing but benefits for players, and makes the system actually make sense. A janky system that's janky for the sake of it isn't a benefit
I say these things as someone who does QA for a living and one of the main things I do is give feedback to our dev team on UI and how user friendly it is. Sometimes if something would cost too much to implement "good enough" is good enough, but with something like this, the cost would just be swapping around existing content and then running it through QA for bug testing and balancing. Seeing as how they are still reworking the entire core game mechanics with stuff like learn by doing, my suggestions are ridiculously minor in comparison
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This isn't an RPG, it just uses RPG stats but doesn't code them the way an RPG would code them because that requires a bit of effort.
I mean, high strength = carry, fortitude = health? GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT RPG TALK!
OP is right though, the mag system is bad and it just gets worse as you collect half your mags and get handed one way or another your best in slot weapon of choice and suddenly your progression in that become useless, or how stone tools outclass iron in 3 different ways, etc.
I mean, high strength = carry, fortitude = health? GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT RPG TALK!
OP is right though, the mag system is bad and it just gets worse as you collect half your mags and get handed one way or another your best in slot weapon of choice and suddenly your progression in that become useless, or how stone tools outclass iron in 3 different ways, etc.
Riamus
Well-known member
You didn't read what I wrote, did you? I was not in any way talking about the way perks are in the game and whether or not that works. I stated that not speccing into one tree works fine. Very big difference. Even with your suggestions, it wouldn't likely change whether or not I spec into one tree or multiple trees and in both cases, that works. I specifically supported at least some of what you were saying in the following paragraph.
LackLustaFilaBusta
New member
Pretty sure LoTL doesn't even give 5 crops back anymore at max rank and that skill alone is broken with only the 50% chance to get a seed back on harvest. You can't really have a self sustaining farm unless you get extremely lucky and get your seeds back on every harvest.
theFlu
Well-known member
Correct. It gives 6 or 7. 5 is required to craft a seed, so you'll net 1-2 minimum.
CapnCookie
New member
LotL gives an average of about 6.5 crops per player-placed plant (base of 2, then triple harvest plus 50% chance for an additional crop). Seeds cost 5 of whichever crop, so you net an average of 1.5 crops per plant. Not a crazy net yield, but enough for it to be self sustaining.
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Skullfracture
New member
The more I play with the Learn by Reading system, the less I like it. It's Minibikes for Dumbasses v.2, but applied to every-friggin-thing.
LackLustaFilaBusta
New member
I like the new mag system for the most part, only thing that I found that feels bad is looting something that is higher tier than what you can craft, makes the whole gathering process feel kinda pointless when it happens.
Scyris
New member
Erm your losing bonus 50% damage, reload speed and other things, not to mention the headshot damage. Using a weapon without investing is prob using it at about half its potental or less. Its why I want learn by doing skills for weapons that controls its perks like pummel pete level you can have, as well as the bonus head shot damage being in the learn by doing skill. Harvesting tools would control miner 69'er/motherload, Salvaging could be wrenching. Basically, I want the stat system gone, or at least have weapons/tools decoupled from it.
Darkness Falls is a good example of this done right, though craft tier for items is more level gated than anything. like lv 1, 10, 20, 40, 80. lets you make Ql 1, 11, 21, 31, 41, 51. All the weapons and mining tools etc, have their own learn by doing perks.
Apocalypse now does it a bit differently, it has one General Perk stat to control all headshot damage, and all weapons perks that goes up to lv 20. Then it has classes for more specific perks, like Miner has heavy armor, miner 69'er and motherload, and you up it by crafting books from scrapped schematics/recipes.
Both are far better systems than vanilla has. The whole stat system needs to go in the damn trash, as its especially poor for single player. I myself pretty much am still forced to go str, as it has miner 69'er and motherload, both fairly vital perks in single player, so I usually just use clubs as my melee. I dispise the fact I have to waste points in a stat to be good with another weapon, and yes its a waste. I like rifles, but there is really nothing else I deem vital in perception, so investing it in just for the rifles skill is a total waste of skill points. The issue is even worse in a21. Sex t-rex is gone, so now you have to take a stat to 10 and max up the weapon/tool line for that one specific thing to match what sex t-rex used to do for less than half the perk points cost of one line that applied to everything globally.
Like have people not done the math? Sex t-rex was 5 str to max. and greatly reduced stam costs for everything, now in A21, for the same amount of points, you get half the effect of sex t-rex on only ONE weapon or tool type. Its a net loss. Yes I go str builds, but even if I didn't I'd still be talking about how gated it is now. It how costs you double the perk points or more, to get the full effect of sex t-rex on only 1 weapon or tool. I hope you people are happy, as you just made it super inefficent for everyone. I wish TFP would add sex t-rex back to str, and just have the game use whichever gives the greater stam reduction bonus. Thus giving players choice, they can ignore str and focus on their chosen weapon, or spend the lower perk point cost to get stam reduction on everything across the board.
So tired of Tfp removing choice from the players and forcing us to play in inefficent ways to meet their vision whatever the hell that is these days.
Its actually nasty in the vehicle dept, a streamer I watch was on day 40 and still only had the bicycle unlocked, he also was a int build. The vehicle books are FAR FAR to rare. I am just thankfull the first time you tier up at a trade you get a guarnteed bicycle as a choice or else this would REALLY suck. when you tier up from t3 to t4 quests there is also almost always a chem lab as a static choice. Or at least everytime I tiered up from t3 to t4 quest there was always a chem lab as one of the choices, which of course I took the chem lab myself as I usually don't even have 15 workstations by this point due to the rarity of the book.
LackLustaFilaBusta
New member
I think a mix of learn by doing and mag system could resolve a lot of the problems. Learn by reading can control the crafting aspect while learn by doing can control effectiveness of weapon/harvesting skills. Then just have a single skill page to spend points on perks that don't fall in line with either system like iron gut or advanced engineering.
Uncle Al
Active member
Making seeds effectively costs 2.5 crops per seed, as you get the seed back 50% of the time, so you get an average profit of 1.5 per farm plot at LotL 1. LotL 3 does average 6.5 yield, but that's an average 4 profit per plot, and guarantees a positive return every harvest.
There seems to be this totally false perception that it's only worth farming at LotL 3, which is nonsense. I've found LotL 3 is only needed if you're farming for a largish group. Solo or duo, 1 point is absolutely fine.
CapnCookie
New member
I'm not sure if it's changed, but I haven't gotten a single seed back for any of the crops I've planted in A21e.
Edit: I just looked at my blocks xml and I definitely have the normal lines that include the drop event for seeds with a 50% probability. Very interesting indeed.
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Scyris
New member
Yeah thats what the game badly needs. Just have a general perk's stat for all the non-weapon stuff, and learn by doing for weapons/tools perks like pummel pete and the headshot damage. I've hated the stat system since it was first announced, tfp's reason was to remove "level gates" but instead of removing the single level gate most perks had, they now made it 5 gates, so they made the problem worse, not better. I do like the magazine system though, it makes the game have a unique playthru each time even if you use the same build, since having high in the perks doesn't guarntee your going to find the mag, it just skews it in your favor a bit. Some of them though have to many levels, Vehicles and Workstations to name 2 that are especially bad. More so vehicles, I've seen people on day 40 that still only have a bicycle as they still haven't gotten enough mags to make a minibike. Mind you in a20 I never went intel so I usually had to buy my minibike/motorcycle parts, but with how traders were gutted so bad, its damn near impossible to buy the main parts (handle bars and chassis). It would be nice if the minibike bundle ALWAYS gave the handlebars and chassis, and you just had to find 2 wheels a engine and a battery. I usually have all that long before I'd get the parts.
Uncle Al
Active member
That's definitely sounding like a bug if you've done significant farming. I'm seeing exactly what I'd expect, with no change from A20. I usually plant in fives solo and I'll get 1-4 seeds back per harvest.
Scyris
New member
in A21 b317 I had 10 corn stalks, and I got 1 seed back after harvesting all 10. So the games 50/50 chance seems incorrect unless I was just THAT unlucky. I'm not a real fan of the replanting chance. like I'd not mind if after harvesting I am guarnteed a seed I have to replant manually, I'm ok with that, but this 50/50 (or less) chance thing of a seed is kinda BS. I never build a big farm in vanilla a20 or 21, I usually have 15-20 plots and just plant whatever I happen to find with LoTL 1, as I know your basically not going to be able to be self sustaining. There are new animal feed palletes thou u can shovel for corn seeds on farms usually.