PC 7Days To Die in General, but Game Programming even more generally

[ShadesOfKnight]

Hey, everyone!

So I've been noticing an increasing trend - or perhaps I'm only noticing it more over time - of reliance on the RNG for damn near everything in gaming recently.

In 7D2D I first picked up on it with the scavenging for "parts" for so many things - especially going through an entire city and not finding even one "baseball bat parts" - and like the saying goes, once you see it you can't stop seeing it.

So is anyone else seeing this trend of over-reliance on RNG? Does anyone else have a problem with it? Does anyone have a solution to it?

That last question is actually not rhetorical - I'm not a great programmer, but I know enough to realize that computers suck at modeling statistical probabilities without using RNG... and I'm dying for someone smarter than me to come up with a better way so that we can have something better than luck driving what could otherwise be strategic gameplay.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

So is anyone else seeing this trend of over-reliance on RNG? Does anyone else have a problem with it? Does anyone have a solution to it?

Yes I am and yes I have.

Intelligent RNG.

It basicially accounts for previous failures to increase successrate. Not a "you failed 3 times so the 4th is 100% but a "you failed 3 times and instead of 90% failure rate, you only have 30% for the next 2 tries"

Basicially takes all the positives (of suspense and randomization) and cuts the drawbacks (of feeling cheated because RNG wasn't on your side in extreme cases, which will eventually happen). But what am I saying of course gamedecs know better.

 

[Brian9824]

Yes I am and yes I have.Intelligent RNG.

It basicially accounts for previous failures to increase successrate. Not a "you failed 3 times so the 4th is 100% but a "you failed 3 times and instead of 90% failure rate, you only have 30% for the next 2 tries"

Basicially takes all the positives (of suspense and randomization) and cuts the drawbacks (of feeling cheated because RNG wasn't on your side in extreme cases, which will eventually happen). But what am I saying of course gamedecs know better.

Honestly i hate that and so do many people. It defeats the entire purpose of RNG. Diablo 3 did it and people hated it. It results in no variety, and the only thing that changes from game to game is the order at which you find things.

There is nothing in the game that you need that is locked behind RNG atm. If you can't loot it then buy it, if you can't buy it then take the skill and make it yourself. That is how a game should be balanced.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

There is nothing in the game that you need that is locked behind RNG atm. If you can't loot it then buy it, if you can't buy it then take the skill and make it yourself. That is how a game should be balanced.

Three words - Baseball bat parts.

Can't make them. They only turn up in the Trader, airdrops, and in searchable containers based exclusively on RNG.

Believe me. The entire city of diersville looted… not one baseball bat part.

So yeah, it's locked behind RNG.

What I've always thought would work is some sort of "localized randomization." Using my case as an example - it's certain that there will be at least one set of baseball bat parts SOMEWHERE in Diersville. Which specific container is a function of random chance, possibly weighted by type (it's not reasonable in an oven, but it is reasonable in a storage box or trash can) but it's unreasonable for the RNG to NEVER have one in the ENTIRE city.

PS - What the heck IS the purpose of RNG, other than to shortcut in-depth thinking like this?

- - - Updated - - -

Intelligent RNG is a nice idea, but I don't know about weighting it. Meat stew shouldn't turn up in a "foul trash" pile just because it's adjusted chances moved it that way?

 

[RipClaw]

So is anyone else seeing this trend of over-reliance on RNG? Does anyone else have a problem with it? Does anyone have a solution to it?

I'm not a fan of RNG either. My solution is currently to do as many quests as possible and put points into Lucky Looter early on.

If you start the quest then the complete POI will be reset including the loot and the zombies. So you have a new attempt to find what you are looking for.

 

[jdm311]

To me, RNG is what makes every game feel different. It adds to replayability. But then I also like to decide my build based on what I find. If I decided to be a slugger before starting a new game and I couldn't find bat parts, that would bug me as well. That's probably the reason why I don't.

 

[graphite]

I will honest i have very basic programming skills but saying that don't understand how you would keep track of all the loot items.

What happens with the amount you have and regards if you sell or store them ?

Unless i misunderstand you would need a record of the distrubution and will be constantly changing the distrubution range on items and rerolling PRNG.

I don't know diablo3 but it sounds like a system like that could be predictable like described which is not the desired effect.

Btw i'm not arguing as i'm guessing PRNG can be problematic but imagine it takes time to balance the weights and being alpha its a moving target all the time.

Even if you restrict it to weapons/ammo , mods, armour there is still alot to keep track of.

Even a really simple learning system that kept a basic general history of your luck could get complex and take up valuable resources.

I feel that once the game framework has more modules completed then these balancing issues will be smoothed.

I hope to see the traders linked though quests in some way and noticed in the XML different traders can be weighted for different item groups.

I would also like to see a slight improvement in the ability to sell to the trader.

 

[Roland]

Three words - Baseball bat parts.
Can't make them. They only turn up in the Trader, airdrops, and in searchable containers based exclusively on RNG.

Believe me. The entire city of diersville looted… not one baseball bat part.

So yeah, it's locked behind RNG.

But you can use lower tier clubs. You aren't locked out of playing the melee game with a blunt force trauma weapon. A baseball bat is the holy grail of clubs. You aren't supposed to be guaranteed a baseball bat every time you play. You are guaranteed to be able to progress to Quality level 5 of the tier 2 club all based upon your own efforts with no random factors stopping you.

Think about how dumb the Quest for the Holy Grail would be if you could just.....make one or if you knew you were guaranteed to find it in the first city you searched or that each failure was guaranteed to increase your eventual success.

I'm not disagreeing that the probability of bat parts is too low but I don't think it should be high enough that you are guaranteed a baseball bat each time you do a playthrough. There is definitely balancing work that still needs to be done but I disagree with the opinion that top tier holy grail stuff can't be locked behind RNG. Only items that would block the player from moving through their natural progression arcs should not be locked behind RNG and since baseball bats are a luxury item they are fair game.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

But you can use lower tier clubs. You aren't locked out of playing the melee game with a blunt force trauma weapon. A baseball bat is the holy grail of clubs. You aren't supposed to be guaranteed a baseball bat every time you play. You are guaranteed to be able to progress to Quality level 5 of the tier 2 club all based upon your own efforts with no random factors stopping you.

True, but that's not what the guy said - he said nothing that you need is locked behind RNG. I am arguing that unless you wanted to play 7DaysToCaveman, you'd *need* that upgrade - and the upgrade IS locked behind RNG.

Think about how dumb the Quest for the Holy Grail would be if you could just.....make one or if you knew you were guaranteed to find it in the first city you searched or that each failure was guaranteed to increase your eventual success.

One - And just like that, I now have the design for my next Zombie Stronghold. "The castle aaaaaargggh."

Two - Let's not equate the Holy Grail to a baseball bat, shall we? The Bat is NOT the Holy Grail of melee weapons - it's not even the Holy Hand Grenade of Melee weapons. The Iron Sledge, which can be crafted almost immediately, outpaces the damage of the Bat. How dumb is it that no one in an entire city had a baseball bat? I mean, it's not like they're as rare as the Grail allegedly was. There were more than one Louisville Sluggers in the world. (Though, on second thought, they are defended by cruel, vicious, foul-tempered creatures with nasty big pointy teeth...)

I'm not disagreeing that the probability of bat parts is too low but I don't think it should be high enough that you are guaranteed a baseball bat each time you do a playthrough. There is definitely balancing work that still needs to be done but I disagree with the opinion that top tier holy grail stuff can't be locked behind RNG. Only items that would block the player from moving through their natural progression arcs should not be locked behind RNG and since baseball bats are a luxury item they are fair game.

The problem is, what is a "natural" progression in an open-world survival sim like this? Sure, a caveman-only approach, where only the most basic stone tools being not RNG-based would be arguably "natural," but I doubt anyone would be happy with it. It would be like Ark without any possibility of advancement.

"Luxury items," IMLTHO, are things like Vitamins that make you 100% immune to diseases or real chemical Antibiotics that fix the Infection... or things that no one can reasonably craft without using modern tools, regardless of skill (such as gun parts).

 

[graphite]

To be honest it doesnt make much sense to choose something from random and then anealing to get the best result.

Take out the randomness it becomes predictable.

Sometimes if you have the worst luck but still manage ok you feel like you had a good game.

Even if you have really bad luck and don't have a good game , you want to have another attempt that adds to replayability.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

Take out the randomness it becomes predictable.
Sometimes if you have the worst luck but still manage ok you feel like you had a good game.

Even if you have really bad luck and don't have a good game , you want to have another attempt that adds to replayability.

All true, I suppose.

But consider - randomly, you could find a meat stew in a "Foul Trash" pile. Does that add to the replayability, or just make it silly? I mean, why not just call it "random loot pile 1" and be done with it, instead of trying for environment and atmosphere... which is generally predictable.

Consider further - you have a map called Navezgane. Is it not, by definition, predictable to a point? The Cell Tower, and everything that it provides, will be in the same place every time you play. Is that reducing replayability?

IMLTHO, randomness has a place - but it's NOT everywhere. Random chance shouldn't overwrite all sense and get explained away with "well, them's the breaks... try again."

That's why I'm begging for a better solution than the reliance on RNG - it doesn't make the game "replayable" except only in the craps sort of way. I prefer more strategy in a survival sim.

 

[Roland]

True, but that's not what the guy said - he said nothing that you need is locked behind RNG. I am arguing that unless you wanted to play 7DaysToCaveman, you'd *need* that upgrade - and the upgrade IS locked behind RNG.

This will just have to be a point of contention. I wouldn't call the Quality 5 iron club fully kitted out with mods "Caveman" and I would submit that anything beyond that level is luxury. If you are getting a fully modded blue iron club by the early game then that is a different balance issue altogether.

One - And just like that, I now have the design for my next Zombie Stronghold. "The castle aaaaaargggh."

Two - Let's not equate the Holy Grail to a baseball bat, shall we? The Bat is NOT the Holy Grail of melee weapons - it's not even the Holy Hand Grenade of Melee weapons. The Iron Sledge, which can be crafted almost immediately, outpaces the damage of the Bat. How dumb is it that no one in an entire city had a baseball bat? I mean, it's not like they're as rare as the Grail allegedly was. There were more than one Louisville Sluggers in the world. (Though, on second thought, they are defended by cruel, vicious, foul-tempered creatures with nasty big pointy teeth...)

I knew I was inviting Monty Python...

To your second point lets not equate sledge hammers and clubs-- they are different trees. I never claimed the baseball bat was better than a sledge but it is better than the primitive wooden club and the better than primitive iron club. If you are only wanting the most damaging of all melee weapons why go into clubs at all? Why even have angst over baseball bat parts to begin with?

The problem is, what is a "natural" progression in an open-world survival sim like this? Sure, a caveman-only approach, where only the most basic stone tools being not RNG-based would be arguably "natural," but I doubt anyone would be happy with it. It would be like Ark without any possibility of advancement.

Your mistake is labeling anything and everything below the very very best as "caveman". Sorry but there is a clear progression from wooden club to iron club and from Quality 1 to Quality 5 and from no mods to fully modded and in my opinion "caveman" level ends quite a bit sooner than you are representing it to be.

"Luxury items," IMLTHO, are things like Vitamins that make you 100% immune to diseases or real chemical Antibiotics that fix the Infection... or things that no one can reasonably craft without using modern tools, regardless of skill (such as gun parts).

Luxury items by definition are non-essentials. Once you have a Blue Iron Club with full mods I submit that anything above that is non-essential. You can win the game with the club I've described.

Now...that being said, I would personally make the baseball parts and Quality 1 and 2 baseball bats more common but make the schematic more rare. That would be more natural to be finding baseball bats around and scrapping them for parts and saving those parts for when you hopefully can get your hands on a schematic.

 

[asmosnuts]

Rng fulfills its purpose admirably, but for some reason has been a bone of contention for a long time.

Rng can shape or destroy your game, having to work with what you have is one of the games best elements and even that is a lot weaker than it was.

If you get everything you need immediately, where is the challenge? The latest build is far more forgiving than some others were. we all have games we deem unfair, the rng gods are sometimes against us and sometimes not. Some of the best games i have had have been ones where finding certain items was a real problem.

I'm not sure why so many are against randomisation when it gives so much to the game including maps and in reality takes very little away.

Frustrating at times yeah, gamekiller no. Learning to adapt can enhance the game and encourage exploration.

Clueless as to importance of bat parts when there are so many weapons to use and its not as if weapons are thin on the ground!

 

[graphite]

All true, I suppose.
But consider - randomly, you could find a meat stew in a "Foul Trash" pile. Does that add to the replayability, or just make it silly? I mean, why not just call it "random loot pile 1" and be done with it, instead of trying for environment and atmosphere... which is generally predictable.

Consider further - you have a map called Navezgane. Is it not, by definition, predictable to a point? The Cell Tower, and everything that it provides, will be in the same place every time you play. Is that reducing replayability?

IMLTHO, randomness has a place - but it's NOT everywhere. Random chance shouldn't overwrite all sense and get explained away with "well, them's the breaks... try again."

That's why I'm begging for a better solution than the reliance on RNG - it doesn't make the game "replayable" except only in the craps sort of way. I prefer more strategy in a survival sim.

The way i look at the meatstew is you wouldn't find edible cooked food anywhere really only tins and what you prepare fresh yourself.

The weird dimension of where you start with the realism and where you stop boundries is up to the devs.

But consider this you have a working fridge it could have food in it, will it still be edible.

What about the power for said working fridge why cant you tap into it ?

Anyway realism is another debate and tbh i stay out of it and just go with the flow the game goes in.

Nav being the same world everytime sort of does effect replay value and if we didnt have world generation people would burn out even quicker than they do now.

But i get the point your making that you think that where progression with depth can be used it should be.

I would argue for the most part it is developing but the loot is an area that needs PRNG for it too exist as a broad system it is.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I will honest i have very basic programming skills but saying that don't understand how you would keep track of all the loot items.What happens with the amount you have and regards if you sell or store them ?

There would be various different ways.

You have a loot drop table anyway. You could possibly increase the drop rate by 1% per ingame day (maybe cap it at 50%). When you found one, it resets to its original value.

Or base it on the level of the character.

True, but that's not what the guy said - he said nothing that you need is locked behind RNG. I am arguing that unless you wanted to play 7DaysToCaveman, you'd *need* that upgrade - and the upgrade IS locked behind RNG.

You're using it wrong.

7 days to die is not ment to be played as a caveman and especially not balanced to that. It's more based on "use what you find. If you do not find a special item, deal the game without it".

If you want to play such a special challende, you're free to mod the game. Increase the drop chance for baseball bats (or its parts) or at least increase it for special containers. Replace every ranged weapon with baseball bats.

It is like wanting to use nails with a screw driver and then complaining that the screw driver doesn't work well with the nails.

Two - Let's not equate the Holy Grail to a baseball bat, shall we? The Bat is NOT the Holy Grail of melee weapons - it's not even the Holy Hand Grenade of Melee weapons.

He said "baseball bat is the holy grail of CLUBS". Read (correctly), think, answer. In that order.

You want to play as a caveman? Did they use sledgehammers? So you complain about not having found a baseball bat but then argument the sledgehammer outruns the baseball bat anyway, then use a sledgehammer.

The problem is, what is a "natural" progression in an open-world survival sim like this?

It's not a simulation!

And the natural progression is that there are things you probably won't find. Especially not in the time you'd prefer to find it.

In our current game we are on day 90 and are still missing a 4x4 chassis or the skill book. And we've still only found 3 of 7 skill books for the sniper, nobody can craft AP amunition yet.

In the previous game we found the whole equipment needed for a 4x4 on day 2. We couldn't still build it because we didn't have the ressources to craft all parts, but we've gone for this and finally had a 4x4 even before one of us could just craft a bicycle.

That's what makes every playthrough different and that is good. It's not balanced for your caveman approach and it hopefully will never be, because for not-caveman-playstyle that would be OP. It's impossible to balance the "default" game for every playstile imaginable.

If you would be almost guaranteed to find item or skillbook up to day X, the game would be overall boring.

And yes, it's just a form of perception. You just notice not finding items you are searching especially. You've gone through a whole town not finding one baseball bat (parts). Did you notice what other items you haven't found? Did you find a sniper rifle? Did you find Grandpas elexir of learning? Have you found all kinds of seeds? Did you find all skillbooks? I'm pretty sure there is a lot of stuff left you haven't found in the entire city, you are just not noticing it, because you didn't look for it.

And again it's not a simulation. While in reality (at least in the US, try searching for a baseball bat in germany) at least every second household would have a baseball bat doesn't mean you necessarily find one.

 

[RipClaw]

To your second point lets not equate sledge hammers and clubs-- they are different trees.

No, they're not different trees. They are under two different perks but the attribute for both is strength.

 

[graphite]

There would be various different ways. You have a loot drop table anyway. You could possibly increase the drop rate by 1% per ingame day (maybe cap it at 50%). When you found one, it resets to its original value.

Or base it on the level of the character.

You would still need all the probability stats created and i'm guessing they would need to allow for the 1% incrementing seems like your adding more difficulty to already difficult situation.

Like i said above keeping track of all those items would be a accessor and mutator nightmare !

If You increase probabiltes by level wont you get predictability.

I can see it could be useful with gamestage linked to ammo etc but not sure about mags or other items.

Not arguing with you just find the topic interesting and trying to see the logic in it.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You would still need all the probability stats created and i'm guessing they would need to allow for the 1% incrementing seems like your adding more difficulty to already difficult situation.

No. Lets say for specific weapon crate you have base dropchances like:

1% baseball bat

5% ak-47

10% pistol

Those chances are somewhere created and stored in the game anyway. (Don't know where exactly but almost sure this is saved similar to this in one of the xml files)

Chance increases 1% per day (maybe capped at 50 to not make a drop for absolutely sure ever)

If you open the crate a dice (1-100) is rolled for every item that could drop in this box. If the roll is equal or less then the dropchance it will spawn. You do not need to do this for every item, but only for items you want to get with a higher chance as the game progresses. So lets say only for weapons.

On day 25 then you will have dropchance of:

26% baseball bat

30% ak-47

35% pistol

Now you open a crate and roll:

baseball 37 - no drop

ak-47 98 - no drop

pistol 22 - drop - resets pistol drop chance

On day 30 you have then dropchances of:

31% baseball bat

35% ak-47

15% pistol

Open the crate and roll:

baseball 30 - drop - resets baseball drop chance

ak-47 99 - no drop

pistol 65 - no drop.

On day 50 you have then dropchances of:

21% baseball bat

50% ak-47 (gets capped)

35% pistol

and so on.

The iteration happens every time you open such a chest. I just assumed in this example just openening such a chest on day 25, 30 and 50 (not a single one in between where a drop will reset chance) just to point out how the chances evolve.

If you open chests frequently and rng still misses the drop for days, the drop chance will increase and since you've got one it will reset, to make sure you will not find another one with a high chance already in the next crate.

Basically it doesn't matter if you base this on days, playerlevel, gamestage, days alive, or whatever. You can even increase it by number of crates opened. They just increase with different speeds. E.g. playerlevel would increase faster in early game but slower in later game, as you maybe gain 3 levelups within day 1 and around day 100 only get a level up every 5 days. On the other side basing it on the day it will increase linear, no matter if early or lategame. Gamestage would be something in between since the gamestage is just calculated out of playerlevel, deaths and capped by server day.

 

[Roland]

No, they're not different trees. They are under two different perks but the attribute for both is strength.

Different Perk Trees then....sheesh....

The point remains that if you only care about the most damaging melee weapon and nothing else then why even try for a baseball bat? If you are perking into clubs then the baseball bat is the super club and it would make sense that it is better than all other clubs. That doesn't mean it should also outclass all the sledges. If you want the damage of a sledge then perk into sledges and then who cares if you find a baseball bat. Care about finding steel sledge parts instead.

 

[graphite]

Yes i was wrong it seems GS is used in combination with other systems (tables for containers and item group).

Being honest i don't really understand the system and proberly shouldnt discuss in general discussion about the details of the mechanics as people who don't want to know can stay out of the mod section of the forum.

Like i said above i have confidence in what is being done and now after looking believe that the system is not finished, when it is then the probability weights can be adjusted if needed.