We have slightly different playstyles and completely different luck. The first thing I leveled up was farming, and I also put one point into cooking. I'm on my third day of play (120 minutes). I only have enough water to drink, even though I'm picking up and filling empty jars. The water issue should be gone, though, since I can now make smoothies and make seeds from blueberries and yuca. But I'm missing potatoes for stews; for some reason, they're not dropping. I also can't make dew harvesters yet, nor can I even make a workbench. I'm just unlucky with the magazines for workbenches in this game.
Feedback on 2.5
- Thread starter for4gerz
- Start date
If drinking from a lake with a chance of dysentery is what you call "no problem with water at all" and "unlimited water", then we don't have different play experiences as I thought, but a difference of definition what constitutes a problem.
Theoretically we have unlimited water at our hands. Practically drinking from a lake is trading one scarce resource with another, and not a solution if you are already down with both.
When I start a new game I usually need to adapt to being a weakling again and get hit sometimes and often also get an infection. I play with default 60 minutes per day and each single basic zombie needs >5 hits with a club before going down. Even a normal lvl 1 Poi takes 1/3rd to half a day to clear with this. With starting quests, going to the trader and starting dig quest I have only time to clear one single poi the first day, maybe two if nothing else happens. That is one or two kitchens, (before 2.5) worth 2-3 murky water after practically having expended more than double that with activity. I am always low on food and water at the start of the second day. And if I am low on food and water means I have to be more careful and slow down simply because I don't have enough stamina for emergency situations. Which results in getting less food and water.
Your experience may be different if you simply achieve not getting hit by zombies the first day. Or playing longer days or playing at a lower difficulty. Or ... . We are probably all playing near the point where we find enough water to replace what we use. But if someone is slightly below he constantly looses water and if someone is slightly above he feels no scarcity and can do everything much faster.
This is why I am saying: Just because you feel no scarcity doesn't mean other players feel the same.
Riamus
Hunter
That seems like a lot of hits. I don't use clubs, but they shouldn't be that bad. Are you doing headshots and power attacks? Or just regular attacks anywhere on the body? Even with the Q1 wooden spear, I'm knocking them down with a single headshot power attack. One more is usually enough to kill most of the ones you find in the first day. The ones with more health might take an extra hit or two. That's with 1-2 points in spears for day 1. But maybe clubs really are just that low damage.
As far as settings, I use 2 hour days as I've mentioned, but that doesn't change my ability to find food or water. It just means that if I say a day, it's equal to 2 days for you. And the initial water lasts me one day without a problem on 2 hour days, so should really last you 2 days on 1 hour days unless you're constantly running or mining or something else that uses a lot of extra water. I am currently on default difficulty for experimental. I'm assuming you are as well, so no difference there.
Scarcity isn't running out of water. Sure, I'm not stacking up a lot of unused water immediately. But I have enough without drinking from a water source or using empty jars. I do clear tier 1 POI very quickly. They aren't exactly difficult. So maybe I just find a lot more. I also loot everything with E followed by R, so I don't spend time dragging stuff to my inventory or anything like that, which can certainly slow you down significantly.
Kyoji
Survivor
Our of curiosity survival games tend to have things for players to overcome whether it be the elements, shelter, good or water.
Is your issue that the current implementation isn't valid for water scarcity to be a concern or that you don't think it's one of the items that should be one?
Currently water can give dysentery and with the smell changes it might not be a good idea to drink murky water. If you combine that with proper debuffs for being sick then I don't think water is readily available day one.
So then the amount of food and drinks should be reduced to encourage hunting and early game survival from t0-t1 loot. I think a small reduction would benefit the early food/water survival concepts and encourage more to actually make food rather than just eat from another canned good they pilfered from a store. Plus it gives more use for the smell system if people are hunting more and jars if people need to find water sources.
Gamida
Hood Ornament
I haven't looked into any of the guts of it but I would think that food and water usage would scale with the settings.
So if you are on 1 hour days and your water (during normal use) drop to 50% by say 12:00 then
on 2 hour days doing the same thing your water will still drop to 50% by noon.
That is just how it works in my mind. Someone who has delved into the bowels of the code could possibly sort it out.
theFlu
Hunter
I think the base drain is per real hour, not per game time. It's not explicitly stated in the xml:s, but where setting the base in entityclasses:
<passive_effect name="WaterChangeOT" operation="base_subtract" value=".0111"/> <!-- water base drain, 40/hour -->
The comment is 40/hour; we're not losing 40 per game-hour. 40 per 60 min real time seems much closer. The .0111 seems like "use per second", multiply by 3600 seconds and you get close to 40.
Also things like painkillers last for 3 mins Real time, and adjust the base water consumption stat like it's bound to real time. With a comment of "40/180" - assuming 40 water over 180 seconds.
WarMongerian
Scavenger
I never knew the actual numbers/rate, thanks.
My friend and I were playing each of us used our own settings, him with 60 minute days, me with 120 minute days. He would get to day 100 in game, even starting just a couple days before me, but I would play less total hours, less game days, but already surpass him in characters levels.
We compared notes, and it was the 60 (real minute) game day setting that was killing him. I could basically do twice as much as he could each day, and i was far better prepared for Horde Night, as well. He switched to 120 minute game days after that.
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theFlu
Hunter
It does have an effect, but it's roughly the same as setting "horde frequency" from 7 to 14. You get more time, but the first horde is way worse. Depends on how much base you want to prep for etc, the compounding effect of wasted time can be significant. But it's not insane scaling; haven't done it in a while, but "a horde every night" is still playable. Horde every night with 20 minute days started approaching insanity - even when the early hordes were just a couple zeds, and that got changed.
Adam the Waster
Hunter
Look all I know is jars are king. I love them i miss them and idk if its a bug or intentionally but yucca smoothies dont require water in order to craft @schwanz9000
Ether way im loving this update im currently stuck in masons farms barn after killing a deer at night with feral sense on so alot (like 5 zombies) is around
The one thing that makes me depressed is still just lack or zombie spawns. But soon I won't worry about that
Ether way im loving this update im currently stuck in masons farms barn after killing a deer at night with feral sense on so alot (like 5 zombies) is around
The one thing that makes me depressed is still just lack or zombie spawns. But soon I won't worry about that
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I've tried to play like that and holy hell nights are EXTREAMLY excruciating at night. Mostly early game but maybe I'll give it another try
WarMongerian
Scavenger
I have also experimented with longer nights/shorter days.
Dawn coming around a 10AM is a bit strange, but a 12 hours Horde Night is just awesome, though not so much every night.
My latest game, dusk at 2200 hrs, dawn at 0600 hrs. The longer nights cut down questing time (daylight hrs) and delay trader opening until 0600. Traders still try to open, but if Horde Night is still active, you get bounced if you try to enter before 0600 hrs.
Nice little change of pace.
Dawn coming around a 10AM is a bit strange, but a 12 hours Horde Night is just awesome, though not so much every night.
My latest game, dusk at 2200 hrs, dawn at 0600 hrs. The longer nights cut down questing time (daylight hrs) and delay trader opening until 0600. Traders still try to open, but if Horde Night is still active, you get bounced if you try to enter before 0600 hrs.
Nice little change of pace.
7DaystoPlay
Refugee
I really don't understand all this trouble implementing jars or dew collectors while there is a frigging water purifier mod that makes both useless.
And, playing in 2.5 experimental, it was given as a reward choice in the first 7 days.
And, playing in 2.5 experimental, it was given as a reward choice in the first 7 days.
WarMongerian
Scavenger
Can you cook with smirky water, or just drink it with that?
Rotor
Survivor
Part of a quest?
7DaystoPlay
Refugee
Dew collectors and jars were supposed to address the water issue, not the food issue. That is where the mod brakes the game, in my humble opinion.
While you don't gain the bonus from boiled water or tea, you eliminate water as a survival element from the game. The fact you get it by chance is the only thing what prevents the game from totally falling apart in the survival aspect, from the hidration perspective.
Riamus
Hunter
Are we talking about jars when you ask about "current implementation"? Or jars + dew collectors? Or something else? I'll just give a general response... I don't consider water scarcity to be any real problem right from day 1, especially for hydration.
Hydration is covered by being able to drink from a water source if you can't find any other water and using a single vitamin or goldenrod tea or the helmet water mod will allow you to drink up to 200% of your water level, which can last quite a while. And even if you don't do that, you won't die from not drinking stuff. At least, not directly. You could say that you died from it in that your lack of stamina regen might make it hard to fight and lead to your death, but the lack of water won't directly kill you. So, no... water for hydration isn't an issue. People play differently and they might not find all the drinks I find, but everyone can fill up from a water source if the choose and no one will directly die from lack of water, so it's not a real challenge no matter how you play. And now with jars, it's even easier.
For cooking, there are recipes that do not require water. If you don't have a decent water source available (dew collectors, for example) and you keep making recipes that require water, then that's your own fault if you're always out of water. Make one of the recipes that don't require water (such as steak and potatoes) until you have a decent water source. So for food, water is also not a challenge unless you choose to make it one by only cooking recipes that require water.
For glue production, which is really the only use of water that can't be so easily overcome, I think most players aren't needing to craft so much glue in the first week that it will cause too much trouble with water. If you scavenge, you should be finding both glue and duct tape and even if those aren't in large quantities, you still don't have to craft what you find. That, combined with water you find (murky or clean), should provide enough water to make the glue people need in the first week without too much trouble, assuming they aren't spending all their water on food or drinking (drink other things like coffee and tea that you find instead of water). Even with the changes to dew collectors, you should be able to craft those within a week or so. After that, it's not difficult to have enough water. And, once again, empty jars make all of this very easy, especially for any players who change the jar return from 0% to a higher number.
Regarding dysentery, smell is not going to be any different from if you're carrying raw meat around or eating something, so it's not really any worse if having dysentery versus not having it. Once you have a bike, smell isn't even an issue unless you are in a POI and unable to drive around. Zombies won't keep up with you even if they smell you. Dysentery itself is a minor debuff that I don't even pay attention to on the very rare times I end up getting it. I don't even try to cure it when I do get it; that's how minor it is. If you don't like it, then that's fine. I'm not saying that drinking water without protection (vitamin, goldenrod tea, helmet mod) is a good option. Drinking "safe" drinks is always better. However, it is still a valid option that eliminates any real challenge to water (hydration).
As far as making survival more of a problem.... I don't support that. I am not saying they shouldn't do that because there are people who prefer hardcore survival games. But that isn't me. I'm not interested in a hardcore survival game. I'm fine with being able to find enough drinks or food in the early game. I still have to do so. It isn't automatic. And based on the people saying water is a challenge, it's clearly not something everyone thinks is really easy. I wouldn't like to have to spend a lot of extra time hunting or searching for water. Those aren't why I play this game. But for those who like it, it's certainly something that they would prefer. As long as I can avoid it (game setting or modding), I can live with whatever changes they make. I'll already look at removing empty jars once I have time. They just offer me no value.
HammerDano
Survivor
it does make sense to me that "we" would need to grab a gas can and go on a roam to find gas for our vehicles and generators, and that we shouldn't be able to gather fuel without one, but, this late in the game (insert rimshot audio)...it ain't worth delaying the vanilla version. Be a fun mechanic for a mod maybe? I still wouldn't get to play it, but, I'd still be happy for those who could use it.
You just don't know what to do with yourself at night. I'm busy building the base, planting and chopping trees, and tending to the garden. As a result, the night passes quite quickly. And with a 120-minute day, the garden grows just in time for the in-game day.
WarMongerian
Scavenger
Ok, so I have to learn how to control the camera angle now, but I think I can get that. How do I, a player with poor eyesight, resize my HUD, to my life and stamina appears as large as what they did in v2.4? Right now, these numbers are just below where I can read them. Help?