V2.5 Survival Revival Dev Diary

I don't normally comment on the forums, but I feel I need to since I've severally lost interest in the game since patch 2.0, and while I think this in a step forward, it's not quite there yet - Especially regarding water.

To start with I'm just going to outline how I tend to play the game.
  • Loot settings set as restrictive as possible (No respawn, lowest loot percentage possible)
  • Slowest XP progression possible
  • Longest days possible
  • Lowest possible gamma-correction, so at night it's exceptionally dark in my games
  • Random horde nights (Minimum 1 day interval, with 10 day variance, so possible for a horde on day 1)
  • I play with a mod that enhances heat generation from touches, crafting etc.

Water system
I don't mind scarcity of resources, which should be obvious from the above, I don't like the way fluid/water works right now. It's either way too forgiving (Once you get the first Dew Collector), or it's practically a death sentence early game.

And it all comes down to the following things.
  1. Jars not being reusable
  2. Initial skill point placement
  3. Multiple penalties for drinking Murky Water
The first is obvious - Since jars can't be reused, travelling away from known sources of murky water can be extremely risky, since running out of fluid eliminates stamina regeneration, which in turn eliminates the ability to defend yourself.
Even though Murky Water isn't particularly appealing, with the settings I play on it's often a necessity, which means lack of jars cuts down on mobility and limits the chances of finding the tools needed for sustained survival.

The second is focused on that unless skill points are invested into Lockpicking or Advanced Engineering (Or both) from the start, it's highly unlikely to find any Forge Ahead magazines early enough to be able to make a Dew Collector in time. Usually i don't find the first magazine of that type till day 3-5 (With those skills) or 10+ (Without). This means they are mandatory early game.
This in turn takes away from other high value skills (Early game) such as Animal Tracker (Controversial to some maybe), weapons skills or even Iron Gut.

The third comes down to the fact that you not only run the risk of Dysentary, but you also only get half the hydration (Fair) and on top of that you take immidiet damage from drinking Murky Water.
This in turn means that if a player is forced to drink Murky Water, then 20 sips results in death certain death, but that only gives 200 hydration. 200 hydration only lasts about a day with the settings above and that is not taking into account the risk of Dysentary.
And the loss of hit points alone makes every zombie a lot more dangerous and causes food consumption to rise - Which is just as scare early.

Now I'm not going to deny that with those settings it's going to be difficult early game - That is part of the intent, but it's only too easy ending up having to rely on the vendors to survive until the first Dew Collector is built.
And even that isn't certain to work, since it requires me to sell almost everything I find (Even the components for the Dew Collector) to buy enough fluid.

Therefor I'm very sceptical of the change you're making, since more possible items on the loot tables doesn't help, when loot is already scarce - In fact it does exactly the opposite.

A better option would be to make jars reusable again but with the following restrictions...
  • Taking damage from falling or getting hit has a risk of breaking any jars (Filled or empty) currently being carried
  • If Pack Mule absorbs the damage, a number of jars (Filled or empty) in the backpack up to the x% of damage absorbed will break
  • Reduce stackability of jars, especially when filled with Murky Water - Water is heavy, murky even more so (Maybe set maximum per slot to 2 for non-murky fluid and 1 per slot for murky)
  • Require jars to be filled individually, meaning that it'll take longer to acquire large amounts of water from a water source
  • Add an input slot to the Dew Collector similar to the Forge input slots, that take jars as input... No jars, no water from the collector
  • Jars should remain non-craftable
The above would give an incentive to use Dew Collectors when they become available, but doesn't strictly require them. And it would make jars valuable for both playstyles.

On top of that, requiring jars as input for the Dew Collectors ensure that fluid isn't trivial in the mid-to-late game, since if you loose your jars, your Dew Collectors are just collecting dust.

Smell system
I welcome this change.
I normally play with the Scent of Pray mod installed, so that if I'm carrying a lot of Raw Meat (For example when hunting) there is a non-zero risk of a pack of wolves to spawn nearby, or in case of Spoiled Food a pack of vultures or zombie dogs/bears. The mod isn't perfect - It triggers rarely and when it does it break immersion a bit because of the spawn distance and it happening in the middle of a city, indoors or in an empty field.
If something similar could be added, but with a bit of tweaking, to the system proposed I think it could be quite an improvement on the suspense factor.

Apiary
Again a welcome addition, that enhances the feeling of having "made it". I usually play with some sort of mod that adds this, so getting this baseline would be good. I just hope it doesn't become as disruptive to item scarcity as the Dew Collector and that it requires a little bit more effort.

Biome Hazards, Storms, Temperature & Protective Clothing
The storms in game currently aren't that interesting. Prior to Storms Brewing I played with a mod that made temperature a significant factor for survival and I quite enjoyed that.
Reintroducing sensitivity to temperature is a good move, though I'm questioning connecting movement speed directly to exposure rather than connecting it to current stamina levels. I would rather see something like - The higher your stamina level, the faster you can walk, but walking requires stamina equal to 90-100% of your base regeneration (When not exposed) - Meaning mobile melee combat becomes more stamina intensive.

Storms should still be in the game, but their impact should mainly be on visibility, temperature and in the desert - Direct damage from having exposed skin sand blasted.
 
Avalast said:
To start with I'm just going to outline how I tend to play the game.
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Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. I would just point out that your preferred settings and playstyle is not the norm. It would be designated by most players as a type of hardcore mode.

I think when you alter the settings away from default and water (for example) doesn’t balance well, the onus is on you to mod the settings so that it works for you.

I’m sure there will be a modlet that will make jars not be consumed which will fix the game for your settings. But making them reusable for default settings would destroy the balance for how the majority of players play this game.

All good points though for playing hardcore scarcity runs.
 
Khurune said:
I don't get comments "like why does water need to be this scarce" It isn't, you craft a few dew collectors and you have infinite water pretty much. Water in the current state of the game is too easy to get. I'm glad there is a few extra steps to getting a good supply of drinkable water coming in the update.

I'm guessing this will be hated, but I also feel like we get way to much scrap iron from scrapping items. I can't remember the last time I needed to go on a good mining session or build myself a little hobbit hole mineshaft. Same with vending machines and end of poi loot rooms, I'd personally love to see them removed.

My biggest gripe since 1.0 is the game became to arcadey and just throws everything you need right at you in the early game. It's a zombie survival game that lost it's survival aspects, I'm very happy these are slowly adding survival aspects back into the game. I'm really looking forward to the direction 2.5 is taking and hope it continues.
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Agree
 
Roland said:
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. I would just point out that your preferred settings and playstyle is not the norm. It would be designated by most players as a type of hardcore mode.

I think when you alter the settings away from default and water (for example) doesn’t balance well, the onus is on you to mod the settings so that it works for you.

I’m sure there will be a modlet that will make jars not be consumed which will fix the game for your settings. But making them reusable for default settings would destroy the balance for how the majority of players play this game.

All good points though for playing hardcore scarcity runs.
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I agree that the settings are very far from standard and I do understand that balancing extremes like that is exceptionally difficult without affecting more mainstream settings.

Sadly the scarcity runs is a consequence of progression being too fast in some areas.
Crafting skill magazines have been all over the place, except Forge Ahead and Vehicle Adventures, often leading to me having acquired items like Composite Crossbows/SMG or Tactical Assault Rifles (Tier 3+) (Either through looting/crafting - But occasionally also trading) before I've gotten access to the motorcycle or 4x4 - All of which before leaving the starting biome.

BUT be that as it may - Maybe it's worth considering giving players a toggle in the game settings that allows for jars to not be consumed along with the content, rather than requiring a modlet to achieve that.
I'm very big on giving people options (That are likely simple), without having to rely on 3rd party modifications (Hench why I'm looking forward to the Apiary).
 
Roland said:
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. I would just point out that your preferred settings and playstyle is not the norm. It would be designated by most players as a type of hardcore mode.

I think when you alter the settings away from default and water (for example) doesn’t balance well, the onus is on you to mod the settings so that it works for you.

I’m sure there will be a modlet that will make jars not be consumed which will fix the game for your settings. But making them reusable for default settings would destroy the balance for how the majority of players play this game.

All good points though for playing hardcore scarcity runs.
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And for the record - Water is almost trivial once you have enough Dew Collectors to cover the basic need for hydration (Which only takes one or two). And if the game doesn't deny the player that first Forge Ahead magazine (Which I still occasionally get on day 1) reaching the level of fluid self-sufficiency can happen as early as during day 1 or 2 (Depending on access to duct tape - Polymers aren't a problem due to tires and plastic vehicle components) - Even with those settings.
 
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Avalast said:
And for the record - Water is almost trivial once you have enough Dew Collectors to cover the basic need for hydration (Which only takes one or two). And if the game doesn't deny the player that first Forge Ahead magazine (Which I still occasionally get on day 1) reaching the level of fluid self-sufficiency can happen as early as during day 1 or 2 (Depending on access to duct tape - Polymers aren't a problem due to tires and plastic vehicle components) - Even with those settings.
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Well at least now it is going to take 15 or 16 forge ahead mags to get the dew collector recipe so that loophole is closed.
 
Avalast said:
I agree that the settings are very far from standard and I do understand that balancing extremes like that is exceptionally difficult without affecting more mainstream settings.

Sadly the scarcity runs is a consequence of progression being too fast in some areas.
Crafting skill magazines have been all over the place, except Forge Ahead and Vehicle Adventures, often leading to me having acquired items like Composite Crossbows/SMG or Tactical Assault Rifles (Tier 3+) (Either through looting/crafting - But occasionally also trading) before I've gotten access to the motorcycle or 4x4 - All of which before leaving the starting biome.
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This sounds to me more like the relative frequency of those magazines should be fixed instead. I mean, you seem to say you have to adjust your settings so much because the balance in magazines doesn't work, right? So why not fix this first?

Avalast said:
BUT be that as it may - Maybe it's worth considering giving players a toggle in the game settings that allows for jars to not be consumed along with the content, rather than requiring a modlet to achieve that.
I'm very big on giving people options (That are likely simple), without having to rely on 3rd party modifications (Hench why I'm looking forward to the Apiary).
Click to expand...
 
Avalast said:
Lowest possible gamma-correction, so at night it's exceptionally dark in my games
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I do appreciate this comment from someone who is posting critically. Here is a gamer that enjoys difficult settings and unforgiving conditions in his game and they describe the lowest darkness setting as "exceptionally dark at night". That's awesome. It tells me that the inability of some users to get a dark enough night is simply user to monitor error and that the current in game settings are what they should be if only people can figure out their brightness settings.
 
Reaplay said:
Oh! Please add a food rotting mechanic. This will prevent cooked (or raw) food from accumulating in containers.
If it's not eaten, it starts to smell strongly and attracts zombies.
And rotten food can be processed into fertilizer for the farm (for example, it boosts growth speed or production).
So, cooked food smells from N meters away, while rotten food smells from x2 meters away.
And the more food there is in the container, the further the distance.
P.S. I used Google Translate.
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They currently don't want containers to smell.

The other thing to consider, is how long the food has been in that container you just looted. If food roots, and produces smell, than any zombie going near a house would start destroying all the houses in an area.
 
I hope they reduce murky water & empty jar stack size down to 5 or 10 and make them harder to craft as irl. Make 1 jar 20mins irl to craft.
They also should merge the use of dew collectors and jars, so in order to collect from dew collectors, you must have empty jars.
 
I am glad smell and temperature are back again...been way to long without them in game!
Storage mod for vehicles, undergarments and mods for temperature regulation more good changes.
Jars being hard at first and then being craftable AFTER you have a crucible, good not to early and if you are
like most of my play throughs over the years...you dont get a crucible to after day 32...
 
Stop trying to balance jars and instead balance water if you want the world to be immersive!!

Make jars and cans reusable. These half measures they are using pleases no one. If they want water to be harder to get AND be immersive consider having the water from lakes and rivers be polluted instead of murky...there are chunks of undead guts in it after all. Polluted water can only be purified in the chem station so its locked later in the game. Murky water can be found in things like fountains/rain collectors and can be purified in a cooking pot like we have today. This way water is harder to get, and players can attribute the difficulty to the post-apocalyptic setting and not some dumb gamified jar eating mechanic.

Smells being back is great. Players smelling for eating food is dumb. If you want to balance food, make non-persevered food rot if not canned/jarred/smoked, etc. This also gives players another use for the empty jars!! Bring this game back to it's survival roots for the love of god.
 
To those of you who think you are eating your jars are you also eating your bowls? Are you cramming the fuel cannisters down into the fuel tanks of your cars? Are you smashing the paint cans against the walls of the base you just painted? Are you eating the wrappers of your candy and the cans of your peas?

There are so many abstractions in the game that you never worry about. Why worry about this one? What are you guys doing after you read your magazines? Stuffing them up your butts?

It's a game. You are taking things too literally.
 
King of Here and There said:
Stop trying to balance jars and instead balance water if you want the world to be immersive!!

Make jars and cans reusable. These half measures they are using pleases no one. If they want water to be harder to get AND be immersive consider having the water from lakes and rivers be polluted instead of murky...there are chunks of undead guts in it after all. Polluted water can only be purified in the chem station so its locked later in the game. Murky water can be found in things like fountains/rain collectors and can be purified in a cooking pot like we have today. This way water is harder to get, and players can attribute the difficulty to the post-apocalyptic setting and not some dumb gamified jar eating mechanic.

Smells being back is great. Players smelling for eating food is dumb. If you want to balance food, make non-persevered food rot if not canned/jarred/smoked, etc. This also gives players another use for the empty jars!! Bring this game back to it's survival roots for the love of god.
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You think that would satisfy the perpetual whiners? They wouldn't thank TFP for doing your proposal. They would seethe that TFP had created another artificial gate with the idiotic and stupid half-measure of calling it "polluted" and forcing the use of a chem station for something that a campfire was good enough to do in the past. The fact that murky water could only be collected from fountains, sinks, and other water-themed loot containers would be scathingly rejected as TFP further forcing the looter-shooter mentality on players and punishing players who don't want to loot all the time.

Nothing will make everyone happy. It doesn't matter how they change it. The angry trolls will always turn it around to be some kind of insulting slap in the face against players.

Look at the biome environmental hazards. That's the same type of immersive apocalyptic world environmental change as your polluted water idea. Were the haters happy about the new "pollution"? No. They were livid that it gated their entry into whatever biome they had the whim of wanting to enter whenever they wanted to do it.

So, nothing against your polluted water idea. I'd be fine with it, myself, because I'm easy going and willing to adapt but it wouldn't be some full measure solution compared to TFP's supposed half measure and the same people would still be livid about it.
 
Roland said:
To those of you who think you are eating your jars are you also eating your bowls? Are you cramming the fuel cannisters down into the fuel tanks of your cars? Are you smashing the paint cans against the walls of the base you just painted? Are you eating the wrappers of your candy and the cans of your peas?

There are so many abstractions in the game that you never worry about. Why worry about this one? What are you guys doing after you read your magazines? Stuffing them up your butts?

It's a game. You are taking things too literally.
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Destroyed book/skill mags/schematics is also a problem some players talked on this forum
Especially when u play coop!
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King of Here and There said:
Stop trying to balance jars and instead balance water if you want the world to be immersive!!

Make jars and cans reusable. These half measures they are using pleases no one. If they want water to be harder to get AND be immersive consider having the water from lakes and rivers be polluted instead of murky...there are chunks of undead guts in it after all. Polluted water can only be purified in the chem station so its locked later in the game. Murky water can be found in things like fountains/rain collectors and can be purified in a cooking pot like we have today. This way water is harder to get, and players can attribute the difficulty to the post-apocalyptic setting and not some dumb gamified jar eating mechanic.

Smells being back is great. Players smelling for eating food is dumb. If you want to balance food, make non-persevered food rot if not canned/jarred/smoked, etc. This also gives players another use for the empty jars!! Bring this game back to it's survival roots for the love of god.
Click to expand...
+
 
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