Gun Reliability

that's obfuscating pedantry. all guns, both real and fake work until they dont work. you are also making a distinction between break and jam that, functionally, serves 0 purpose. changing the words to be more flavourful and less directionally clear to players(especially players who are new to the genre) serves negative purpose.

saying "gun broke needs repairs" and having a jamming animation is fairly clear to most people; people who are familiar with guns get a cue that the break is the gun jamming so they get their flavour and since everything else that breaks can be repaired it does indicate that this too is fixable for anyone who understands the conventions of this sort of game. having it be unique among the weapons and saying "gun jammed" and having a jamming animation is redundant but also it does not indicate that it can be repaired in the same way as everything else. unless you either understand the genre or understand guns this can be quite a bit more confusing


for a small example of how important readability and game consistency is; this game was my introduction to guns being able to break(and only maybe the second or third third game i've played with reloadable guns at all in my thirty years of being a gamer). when i was super new and had my first pipe pistol i reloaded it and it broke right away. to me the pistol was just broken forever because i watched the animation of it jamming and being forced back together while i was in an intense moment of fighting, missed the prompt for repairing and assumed this meant it was no longer a functioning item. i threw the gun away because it was not worth it to hold onto something that could not be fixed. i learned how to read the durability soon after and learned guns could be repaired but only because other items worked in the same way with the same language. if it had just been "jammed" i likely would not have made that leap to understanding for much much longer than i did. the pistol is my primary weapon in this game. my gaming trajectory would have been very different if there was an added layer of obfuscation when i was still too new to the systems and conventions to have a background understanding of a game like 7d2d and consequentially an understanding of guns and gun durability
 
murky water said:
that's obfuscating pedantry. all guns, both real and fake work until they dont work. you are also making a distinction between break and jam that, functionally, serves 0 purpose. changing the words to be more flavourful and less directionally clear to players(especially players who are new to the genre) serves negative purpose.

saying "gun broke needs repairs" and having a jamming animation is fairly clear to most people; people who are familiar with guns get a cue that the break is the gun jamming so they get their flavour and since everything else that breaks can be repaired it does indicate that this too is fixable for anyone who understands the conventions of this sort of game. having it be unique among the weapons and saying "gun jammed" and having a jamming animation is redundant but also it does not indicate that it can be repaired in the same way as everything else. unless you either understand the genre or understand guns this can be quite a bit more confusing


for a small example of how important readability and game consistency is; this game was my introduction to guns being able to break(and only maybe the second or third third game i've played with reloadable guns at all in my thirty years of being a gamer). when i was super new and had my first pipe pistol i reloaded it and it broke right away. to me the pistol was just broken forever because i watched the animation of it jamming and being forced back together while i was in an intense moment of fighting, missed the prompt for repairing and assumed this meant it was no longer a functioning item. i threw the gun away because it was not worth it to hold onto something that could not be fixed. i learned how to read the durability soon after and learned guns could be repaired but only because other items worked in the same way with the same language. if it had just been "jammed" i likely would not have made that leap to understanding for much much longer than i did. the pistol is my primary weapon in this game. my gaming trajectory would have been very different if there was an added layer of obfuscation when i was still too new to the systems and conventions to have a background understanding of a game like 7d2d and consequentially an understanding of guns and gun durability
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Although I don't really want a jamming mechanic, I think there is a difference between the durability hitting 0 and a gun jamming mechanic. Gun jams can happen randomly, regardless of durability. This can create a randomness and potential dangerous situation at unexpected times. Right now, the closest to an unexpected danger now is if you aren't paying attention to durability and it runs out in the middle of a fight. But how often don't you pay attention? It might happen once per play session? A jam could happen far more often and would always be unexpected.

Still, I wouldn't want to have that added to the game. This doesn't need sim mechanics, imo. Of course, since I'm usually using a spear, it would have little impact on me.
 
Riamus said:
Although I don't really want a jamming mechanic, I think there is a difference between the durability hitting 0 and a gun jamming mechanic. Gun jams can happen randomly, regardless of durability. This can create a randomness and potential dangerous situation at unexpected times. Right now, the closest to an unexpected danger now is if you aren't paying attention to durability and it runs out in the middle of a fight. But how often don't you pay attention? It might happen once per play session? A jam could happen far more often and would always be unexpected.

Still, I wouldn't want to have that added to the game. This doesn't need sim mechanics, imo. Of course, since I'm usually using a spear, it would have little impact on me.
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i am about 40/50% gun with the rest split between spikes for groups and spear for super weak solo zombies so i have this happen one or two times a play session when i am not in horde night(horde night i basically only repair WHEN it breaks since the audio-cue is the only cue i take when in that kind of situation so anywhere from two to five times depending on my gun level and if i am streaming through discord)

i will say though, i dont think i would be very comfortable using guns if there was an rng chance they'd just break even after having just repaired them. it is part of my endless frustration with lockpicks, unless i have twelve or fifteen in my invo i just don't bother
 
I understand what you are all saying. I guess I'm just thinking of real-world experiences of soldiers in harsh conditions (think Vietnam and the much maligned M16). It's the difference between reliability and durability. In the fight, reliability is king. In this respect, the AK47 of the same conflict was clearly the better gun.

Anyways, this is just a game. Party on gents. :cool:
 
Guns can jam for all kinds of reasons. Even properly maintained firearms can jam. Dirty and low quality ammo is often the cause of jams rather than mechanical issues. Sometimes a particular gun simply doesn't run well with certain brands of ammo. Sometimes it's a just a matter of bad luck causing a double feed or a stovepipe or whatever.

So it's pretty silly to assume that a gun "breaking" is equivalent to a gun jamming. Clearing a jam usually only takes a few seconds and isn't the same at all as having to actually repair/replace parts to get a gun functional again. The only exception I can think of right now might be a squib round getting stuck in the barrel, which will definitely ruin your day.

Anyway, nearly all of the tactical shooters I've played over the years have featured jamming mechanics, so I wouldn't be bothered by it in this game.
 
madmole said:
We talked about a gun jam mechanic where you just reload it to fix the gun jam. Would be based on quality and degradation. Could make for some interesting situations.
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Personally, gun jams are one of those few mechanics that I don't have super strong feelings for or against. I mean, they can definitely add some exciting "oh crap!" moments to gameplay -- and that's a good thing. They encourage the player to carry a backup and make the tactical choice between clearing a jam or switching to a backup -- also a good thing. Those kinds of split-second decisions are what makes combat interesting, after all.

But... the only time I ever really think about how 7DTD doesn't have jams is when someone else brings it up on the forums. 😄
 
madmole said:
We talked about a gun jam mechanic where you just reload it to fix the gun jam. Would be based on quality and degradation. Could make for some interesting situations.
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If I just had to reload to fix it I probably wouldn't even notice gun jams, much less worry about quality and condition. In that split second, I'd probably think it was just out of ammo, so reload. Not much reason to implement them in that event. As with EvilPolygons, I've never thought about it unless someone mentions it. This isn't CoD. I get the FPS afficionados' appreciation for extraordinary, "realistic" gunplay, but how important is it in a game like 7DTD where everyday folks (and not professional soldiers) are supposedly picking up whateverr they can to defend themselves? It's bad enough if you don't notice until the gun or melee weapon breaks. So, you'd better keep an eye on quality and condition, no? How much is enough?
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
I get the FPS afficionados' appreciation for extraordinary, "realistic" gunplay, but how important is it in a game like 7DTD where everyday folks (and not professional soldiers) are supposedly picking up whateverr they can to defend themselves? It's bad enough if you don't notice until the gun or melee weapon breaks. So, you'd better keep an eye on quality and condition, no? How much is enough?
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To be fair, the game is set in Arizona. Everyday folks in this part of the country generally know how to handle firearms, and knowing how to clear a simple jam is considered basic firearm knowledge. So it's kind of odd for anyone to assume that only professional soldiers would know how to deal with a double feed or failure to extract or some basic malfunction like that.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
In that split second, I'd probably think it was just out of ammo, so reload.
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That's kinda what happens with decent guns IRL, mags tend to be the source of issues.. if one refuses to feed right now, reload another and keep blasting.

In-game it could be a more involved mechanic / animation, but one that's easy to utilize (like mashing the reload button a few times).. something similar to lockpicking, but not locking you in place; with a long?, repeating?, aggressive "reloading" animation to boot.
 
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