PC V2.0 Storms Brewing Dev Diary

[Fisher]

Did something happen in b289 with the armour skill book drop rate? In b285 I was wearing quality 6 assassin gear. Started a new game with the update and on day 17, I only have 3 skill books. This despite having a point in both light armour and medium armour. Checking the looting file, it looks like they're only available from Joel, Savage Country crates or drops from army and thug zombies. Are they really supposed to be this rare now? Quality 2 primitive armour isn't really cutting it for me at the moment...

 

[Khalagar]

Strictly RNG in your case. There are no tags associated with tree stumps that would increase chance of honey via Living off the Land perk.

There's no way. I seriously get honey like every third stump now. I'm not complaining at all since I need it constantly, but if this is RNG then I need to buy a lottery ticket lol

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

OK. Let's see how 4% feels.

I bumped it up from 3% to %5 cause it felt like it took WAY too many kills to get one to drop.

I thought the initial change was good because it incentivized horde nights and killing wandering hordes. Zombie loot bags are one of the few good dopamine hits in the game because you are rewarded for a core activity with the chance at receiving good/useful loot. Personally, I found the change to be enjoyable.

Ultimately, TFP have to decide if they want the game to be rewarding or a grind. Trying to split the difference is unlikely to please anyone. Those who want the game to be a grind will not be happy unless the loot bags are extremely rare. Those who want the game to be rewarding are going to want loot bags to be a regular occurrence.

 

[Mister Forgash]

Can you explain how hot/cold was NOT a boring implementation, in comparison to storms? With hot/cold it was "wear the right clothes or get debuffs". That's pretty much it, in your own words ;-).

Also it seems with the storms there are more options available (most of them the same as you could use with hot/cold): Get into a POI, or build a hut or understand, or use healing potions and weather it out, or flee to another biome.
Also there is the new thing now that zombies run faster when there is a storm!!! That is certainly something new.

Eventually I hope we get a few drinks and candies (EDIT: and weapon mods like Sapeint6 suggested) that protect **partly** from storms. And there could be more: Random chance for zombies to freeze in a snow storm, random chance for them to get picked up and thrown around in a storm. Hot/cold doesn't seem to provide possibilities like this

Wet has always been pretty negligible, It wasn't implemented in a fun or meaningful way, so I can't argue it was fun, on the otherhand..
Looking back to when Hot and Cold still meant anything- In addition to dressing for the weather, you could take shelter, eat specific foods to counteract, or take the damage and heal later.
.. Which from the sounds it, is pretty much what the storms are -- but with visuals and the new zombie speed buff (which I just learned about, which is cool- credit where credit is due)
Maybe it's more impactful than I'm giving it credit for, but on paper, but it's reading to me as they simplified the weather survival into something that can be communicated visually.(As long as you're within the Biome. For now) -but made it look cool.

I'm really hoping to see some degree of weather survival tied in with our food and gear. - Not necessarily needing to micro our day/night clothing needs, but I think it would feel right if you needed to swap out a few armor mods for biome survival needs and you have to choose what you're giving up to be able to spend time in the extreme hot/cold if that were going to be a thing.

I hope food will have a more meaningful role in it too. 'Weather got you down? - Drink a smoothie' just sounds so underwhelming.
I only complain because I love the game. Maybe it's good. Maybe next week I'll be chugging them smoothies and convinced this is peak survival.

 

[Javabean867]

Did something happen in b289 with the armour skill book drop rate? In b285 I was wearing quality 6 assassin gear. Started a new game with the update and on day 17, I only have 3 skill books. This despite having a point in both light armour and medium armour. Checking the looting file, it looks like they're only available from Joel, Savage Country crates or drops from army and thug zombies. Are they really supposed to be this rare now? Quality 2 primitive armour isn't really cutting it for me at the moment...View attachment 34910

Yeah armor mag drips were based on the stat they were attacked to and not the perk. I think they really wanted people to play with the armors, and now that we have had a taste for them, they brought it down to a lower drop rate.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Is there something else that may be adding to the drop rate, like LuckyLooter.

Either numeric is fine by me, but two situations that happened, I have never had
happen before. This was the first time I stopped basically killing the zombies and
made elevated ladders around the WorkinStiffs POI in Nav, at the beginning of the
Horde, kill a couple get a bag throw a rock and run down to get the bag, throughout
the entire horde. Waste Not Want Not.

The second I was running to a quest Poi, 1k away, killing as I went, also ran into a wandering
horde, I don't use packmule because I like the encumbrance mechanic, I had to stop and return
to base twice because I was overloaded from drops. So the third outing, I rode my bike and
ignored everything because it was getting late, and I had a clear fetch quest that I do by stealth
with NVGs.

Edit: @Javabean867 It was my oversight I just thought it was part of the completion list, ad never
looked at them. I was having more fun with the limited time in biomes. I'm going to try to figure
how to just extend the timer, so after getting badge, I still have to beat the clock, just with a more
graceful time period.

 

[EvilPolygons]

There's no way. I seriously get honey like every third stump now. I'm not complaining at all since I need it constantly, but if this is RNG then I need to buy a lottery ticket lol

One of the "special" perk magazines increases your odds of getting honey from chopping trees. IIRC, it applies to stumps, as well.

 

[Uncle Al]

I hope food will have a more meaningful role in it too.

Food just seems to be a missed opportunity all round. Partly that system really suffers because, assuming I understand the mechanics right, increasing your maximum stamina doesn't increase stamina regen proportionally. And all high end foods do, really, is buff stamina.

Stamina regen is much more important than max stamina, and even stamina regen isn't that important when there are so many book and perk lines that give stamina on kills or, most notably, completely refill your stamina on kill.

I could be wrong, but if most players are like me, cooking generally consists of getting to bacon and eggs, and later meat stew, and calling it a done deal. There's no real milage in hunting down the right cans and making complex end game recipes, because they do so little.

It seems very weird to me that having maxed out cooking isn't every bit as impactful as maxing out any other crafting skill. There's no reason high end foods can't buff stamina regen, crit resistance, run speed or whatever else the developers fancy.

Although there are similar issues with a couple of other crafting lines, too. It's very problematic when the only benefit to arduously completing a crafting line is being able to craft an item that you need very few instances of, and can be fairly easily bought. Workstation crafting is a prime example. Nobody really cares about getting to 75 workstation crafting, because you can buy a crucible for 15,000 dukes long before you hunt down 75 copies of Forge Ahead.

I firmly believe that maximising a crafting skill should give access to useful consumables that aren't obtainable any other way. If you got to craft something like advanced repair kits at 75 workstation crafting, that buff damage, armour or speed when used on a weapon, armour piece or vehicle, then getting those 75 magazines would feel like a real benefit.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Food just seems to be a missed opportunity all round. Partly that system really suffers because, assuming I understand the mechanics right, increasing your maximum stamina doesn't increase stamina regen proportionally. And all high end foods do, really, is buff stamina.

My biggest issue with food in 7DTD is that there's no spoilage. I can't remember the last time I actually starved in game. Probably not since A19 or A20. It sure seems like food drops have increased over the past couple of years, and with no spoilage, I always end up with more food than I could ever possibly need.

That's not really how survival games are supposed to work.

 

[Vagus]

I thought the initial change was good because it incentivized horde nights and killing wandering hordes. Zombie loot bags are one of the few good dopamine hits in the game because you are rewarded for a core activity with the chance at receiving good/useful loot. Personally, I found the change to be enjoyable.

Ultimately, TFP have to decide if they want the game to be rewarding or a grind. Trying to split the difference is unlikely to please anyone. Those who want the game to be a grind will not be happy unless the loot bags are extremely rare. Those who want the game to be rewarding are going to want loot bags to be a regular occurrence.

The game is already very rewarding. Have you ever played a Blood Moon Night? After each Blood Moon Night, there are a large number of loot bags. And in general, it's not difficult to get good loot in the game. The game gets easier and more straightforward with each patch, and there are still people who want it to be even easier and more straightforward. If it's still too difficult for you, play in Dev Mode.

 

[Khalagar]

I am pleased to say, the Oubliette 2.0 works fantastic




There are no war crimes in the Apocalypse. For anyone curious, try building a 1 high, 1 wide tunnel that's 5-10 blocks long so the zombies have to crouch walk all the way to you. Scaffold ladder or bars at the end, I like to raise it one block from my standing position and it will basically perfectly line up the zombies heads while they duck walk towards you

Makes for some easy killing, and remember, zombies do NOT have rights under the Geneva conventions so it's fine

 

[Uncle Al]

My biggest issue with food in 7DTD is that there's no spoilage. I can't remember the last time I actually starved in game. Probably not since A19 or A20. It sure seems like food drops have increased over the past couple of years, and with no spoilage, I always end up with more food than I could ever possibly need.

That's not really how survival games are supposed to work.

Spoilage does have some issues with overhead involved in tracking and how to stack multiple items with different spoilage. Plus it's been a stated design intent by TFP that food is meant to be a solveable issue in late game.

That said, Madmole did once say he had considered implementing a system that avoids all the tracking and stacking issues, which was 'all food items rot away every bloodmoon' but I've never been certain if he was joking. It's a hell of a way of doing spoilage.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Spoilage does have some issues with overhead involved in tracking and how to stack multiple items with different spoilage. Plus it's been a stated design intent by TFP that food is meant to be a solveable issue in late game.

That said, Madmole did once say he had considered implementing a system that avoids all the tracking and stacking issues, which was 'all food items rot away every bloodmoon' but I've never been certain if he was joking. It's a hell of a way of doing spoilage.

Lol, wow, yeah. That's a wee bit heavy handed.

I know there's a spoilage mod out there, but it requires 0-SCore which I'm just not interested in.

 

[Riamus]

Ugh. I hate spoilage mechanics in games. It adds nothing for me and just leaves me having to make more food for no real reason (to me). It isn't like you can't afford to make more food, so it doesn't do anything to make it not challenging. It just makes it more tedious. I didn't play this game to cook.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Ugh. I hate spoilage mechanics in games. It adds nothing for me and just leaves me having to make more food for no real reason (to me). It isn't like you can't afford to make more food, so it doesn't do anything to make it not challenging. It just makes it more tedious. I didn't play this game to cook.

Food spoilage and preservation is a serious concern in survival games. The fact is, that a LOT of day-to-day survival struggles could be considered tedious if you're not really into the simulation side of the genre. This is just another one of cases where "fun" to some people is "tedium" to others.

So I get it. I'm the same way with flight sims as you seem to be with survival games. The reason I could never get into DCS World is because I really don't care what all those buttons and switches in the cockpit are supposed to do -- I just wanna fly around and shoot at airplanes.

 

[faatal]

@faatal , after much RWG testing I can honestly say that the new tweaks increased density of Wilderness POI and cities, very noticeable in smaller sizes, which is awesome, but of course the old margins where there for a reason, and the moment you made the change roads broke in many places (for example cutted off by an artificially high square-shaped POI margin, uneven terrain patches between roads and POIs... etc.) and I see quite a few instances of a POI too close to the road that is on a hill/mountain, resulting in crazy elevation shenanigans.

Those instances are not exactly game breaking ALL the time, but those POI/Patches are usually a bother to access, and I don't know if you guys need a huge amount of reports or if you are planning some kind of logic update that manages hills/mountains/POI and roads in a stable manner for this version.

Great work on this update, having a blast!

I have a ticket for roads cutting across POI corners. While fixing an error with mod POIs bigger than the tile inside area, I noticed it is not using the padding on the right and bottom of the tiles, so POIs can be against the edge, which made be causing hard edges. I will be fixing that separately, so it did not make today's exp build.

 

[zztong]

For anyone curious, try building a 1 high, 1 wide tunnel that's 5-10 blocks long so the zombies have to crouch walk all the way to you.

Just out of curiosity, how does the Demo button end up situated when they're crouched? Is it more likely, or less likely, to be hit when they're crouching and coming towards you?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

The game is already very rewarding. Have you ever played a Blood Moon Night? After each Blood Moon Night, there are a large number of loot bags. And in general, it's not difficult to get good loot in the game. The game gets easier and more straightforward with each patch, and there are still people who want it to be even easier and more straightforward. If it's still too difficult for you, play in Dev Mode.

This is not about easy or hard, it's about feeling rewarded for doing things. However, I recognize that there are different strokes for different folks. That said I'm not sure why you believe that your personal preference in this regard is any more legitimate than mine. There is no right answer here.

The point of my post was that TFP needs to pick a lane and stick to it. If either of us does not like the lane they choose then it is on us to adjust our play style, find a mod we like, or create our own modlets. It's not for us to belittle other players who have different preferences.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I have a ticket for roads cutting across POI corners. While fixing an error with mod POIs bigger than the tile inside area, I noticed it is not using the padding on the right and bottom of the tiles, so POIs can be against the edge, which made be causing hard edges. I will be fixing that separately, so it did not make today's exp build.

That's awesome news! It makes my day anytime I read about bug fixes/improvements to wilderness POIs and roads.

 

[faatal]

@faatal how is that 4x12 map going?
Did you set the building on fire trying to generate one?

It did not go. It turns out RWG code has a single size value which is used in a lot of places in code, so I would have to hit all of those to do separate width or height and not break anything. Not doing that now. Maybe in a 2.x release.