Is stealth truly pointless now?
- Thread starter Old Crow
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zztong
Hunter
From my observations it certainly isn't always. I wouldn't even say it is common. A question comes to mind: are the zombies that are waking up near the target, near you, or both? Tier 5 or another tier?
I'm finding Stealth is a weird thing to discuss. Folks have different expectations, but folks also have different techniques. We tend to talk about the outcomes relative to those expectations and techniques.
I'm finding Stealth is a weird thing to discuss. Folks have different expectations, but folks also have different techniques. We tend to talk about the outcomes relative to those expectations and techniques.
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Double G
Survivor
I did a full stealth run not too long ago.
Generally, I'm not a stealth player. I'll use it to a degree when playing in my normal ways...but when I completely dedicated my play to stealth, it did come across kinda like false advertising.
If you're gonna give the player the option of completely dedicating their skills to stealth then let their mistakes be the only reason they get detected. Not by automatic trigger spawns. Not by zombies waking up even when you gave them no reason to.
To me, I don't see any point in dedicating yourself to stealth. Stealth is best used as a small integration into other playstyles.
Generally, I'm not a stealth player. I'll use it to a degree when playing in my normal ways...but when I completely dedicated my play to stealth, it did come across kinda like false advertising.
If you're gonna give the player the option of completely dedicating their skills to stealth then let their mistakes be the only reason they get detected. Not by automatic trigger spawns. Not by zombies waking up even when you gave them no reason to.
To me, I don't see any point in dedicating yourself to stealth. Stealth is best used as a small integration into other playstyles.
murky water
Refugee
my bf has a similar experience when they go out with the hunting knife
Old Crow
Hunter
It'd be stationary sleepers around eachother, maybe a few feet apart, any tier. My friend would kill one with a headshot with his bow, or I would with my crossbow (both using Compound weapons), and the others nearby would just get up and come after us.
4sheetzngeegles
Hunter
In straight Vanilla, I can use stealth better. Mainly because there is so little activity
that I can concentrate. @zztong is correct it's about expectations. Mine are low, only because
of the amount of time I have invested in playing and observing what is; vs what I want, what I
expect or what I think should be.
I play a role vs roleplaying.
Outside,
The three responses I expect
Increased constant spawn just makes it that much more difficult, but satifying when I get er dun.
that I can concentrate. @zztong is correct it's about expectations. Mine are low, only because
of the amount of time I have invested in playing and observing what is; vs what I want, what I
expect or what I think should be.
I play a role vs roleplaying.
They are not the same thing. The main difference is expectations.
Understanding the POI volume logic helps but it is not perfect, and I have a sneaking suspicion
it will change in sensitivity settings, Soon. I just call it being a sneaky "" now.
Understanding the POI volume logic helps but it is not perfect, and I have a sneaking suspicion
it will change in sensitivity settings, Soon. I just call it being a sneaky "" now.
Outside,
throwing a rock a zombies will follow until they get to the resting point, then return
to the original patrol point. Just like in Walking Dead. So if I want a back stab, which is near
impossible under normal circumstances. I throw a rock, and close distance from behind, when they
get close to that point, I have a second prepared, timing it to hit close to them in front so it
makes them follow again, and close distance. Between the second and third throw, I am close enough
to stab em' in the back of the head. Just say out of the 180' view, and squat before you throw be Green
to the original patrol point. Just like in Walking Dead. So if I want a back stab, which is near
impossible under normal circumstances. I throw a rock, and close distance from behind, when they
get close to that point, I have a second prepared, timing it to hit close to them in front so it
makes them follow again, and close distance. Between the second and third throw, I am close enough
to stab em' in the back of the head. Just say out of the 180' view, and squat before you throw be Green
Same technique, if you want to clear an area before entering a POI. It usually takes 3 distance
changes to stop them from returning the same patrol area.
changes to stop them from returning the same patrol area.
The three responses I expect
are, that is too much for just; I for one will not be doing all of that;
it should work this way. I work with the ai and volume rules vs the perks and mods. The perks armor
mods and bonuses are too scrambled to do an RPG run. So I had to adapt my thoughts on stealth, in this
environment.
it should work this way. I work with the ai and volume rules vs the perks and mods. The perks armor
mods and bonuses are too scrambled to do an RPG run. So I had to adapt my thoughts on stealth, in this
environment.
Increased constant spawn just makes it that much more difficult, but satifying when I get er dun.
zztong
Hunter
I hate to play 20 questions, but stealth involves a number of little details.
What was the distance from players to zombies?
What are the character levels?
Any idea what kind of zombie volume? (Or, a POI Tier number can lead to some generalization.)
What were the current stealth values? Admittedly it can be hard to look "in the moment", though some of us will wait for our meters to "settle" before firing.
Something I've been trying to determine through play is if sound events are localized to where they happen or if they only influence the player's stealth value. For instance, firing the bow will increase your stealth value by a couple of points and that's clearly local to the player. What I don't know is if the bolt/arrow hitting something makes noise where it hits. Zombie deaths don't seem to make a lot of noise even when they make the roaring sound.
I've only had one game where I got to be part of group stealth. (There were three of us doing it.) Timed team shots were really effective, but we were very good about keeping our distance.
Dark Sun
Survivor
I'm currently doing an agility build, and from my observations stealth is useful ~half of the time in or outside of POI's. The big weaknesses are outdoor areas during the day, some trigger zones, and a zombie that might be too close to a doorway/too close to me and another zed, and I have to choose which one to assassinate and the other to take toe to toe. From my experience in the past, T5 POI's in almost their entirety are impossible to stealth, just outright. Virtually every single room is a trigger area in some way, shape, or form. You enter one room, 20 zombies spawn in and fall from the ceiling. You kill them and continue on ahead, and 10 more spawn behind you. Up ahead is a button to spawn in aggressive zombies, and more spawn behind you again. That sorta thing. This is not to mention the new vent spawn system which eliminates any chance of being sneaky sneak. T4 POI's are the lesser evil, but they're still bad, usually. Over time, I've learned which areas in which POI's I can successfully clear undetected, and which I just don't bother and pull out the big guns.
I see everywhere that "stealth is dead" and "trigger rooms in every single location in all POI's", even going as far back as A19, which is an exaggeration and either a result of people being poor at being a ninja, or they're parroting what other people are saying. I still see some claims that "knuckles are useless, just look at the cloth wraps". For T4's and T5's, yeah, I would agree with them, though.
I see everywhere that "stealth is dead" and "trigger rooms in every single location in all POI's", even going as far back as A19, which is an exaggeration and either a result of people being poor at being a ninja, or they're parroting what other people are saying. I still see some claims that "knuckles are useless, just look at the cloth wraps". For T4's and T5's, yeah, I would agree with them, though.
bdubyah
Hunter
People don't understand with levels into stealth, even with trigger volumes, you can just scoot away and after a small amount of time zombies lose your scent and start roaming. I think it's just, as mentioned, there are several different expectations of what stealth is and most don't match what the game is. The game defines it as you can mostly one-shot everything, but sometimes you can't and need to maneuver away from the threats to lose them, and you also aren't completely invisible in any situation other than broad daylight which is how it used to be in older versions of the game. Obviously some people don't like it but I really don't see an issue with it. Some people just want the easy mode stealth where as long as you stay in a dimly lit corner and don't crouch walk too fast nothing will ever spot you.
4sheetzngeegles
Hunter
@zztong
Have you ever noticed, the sound difference when up close to an object vs
max distance? Like chopping a stump or a tree up close vs paces away.
Also there are some, loot containers that are louder to me than others. A few
of them I suspect are triggers. Just from results as I played. That's why I don't
open anything until that room and the connecting rooms are cleared first.
Have you ever noticed, the sound difference when up close to an object vs
max distance? Like chopping a stump or a tree up close vs paces away.
Also there are some, loot containers that are louder to me than others. A few
of them I suspect are triggers. Just from results as I played. That's why I don't
open anything until that room and the connecting rooms are cleared first.
ALEXZANDER
Survivor
Mostly yes
Javabean867
Survivor
you need auto triggers for the zambs to spawn, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to complete the clear quests. Do you really want to go through every room making noise just to spawn the zombies that need to spawn to clear the poi? if they removed the auto triggers, then there would be complaints that they can't clear the clear quests because zombies didn't spawn in.
plzkthxbye
Scavenger
What I've always heard/read is they do it that way for performance reasons. If they had all the zombies spawned in at once, apparently it would create significant performance issues (stuttering, dropped frames, etc.).
theFlu
Hunter
"Auto trigger" usually refers to a specific zombie volume type. Referred to as 'Attack' in code iirc.
You do need a "spawn trigger" to have the zeds appear (and to control the amount of zeds in the world).
"Auto trigger" is something that fires After a spawn trigger, waking some/all the zeds up from their slumber when activated (100% chance with a headlight on, greatly heightened stealth detection if no headlight (last I checked... several alphas ago)). Activation can be many things, the annoying version is purely a line you cross when approaching.
zztong
Hunter
It's hard to quantify our experiences since we don't see the game's variables or code.
What I would say is I believe being distant from things you're interacting with seems to help. That is, I think your manipulating and destroying things does affect your stealth meter (as you can visually see) but that I think zombies perceive you (and that stealth meter) based on your location. Being farther from a zombie helps.
Chopping a stump is an interesting choice and that would be outside where things are really easy. That is, I can kill the zombie from a long ways away and then chop the stump.
Harder would be taking down a locked door in a POI. You don't know if there's a zombie 1 block away on the other side, or not. But if I can be three meters back from the door will the zombie be given the chance to perceive the door next to the being quietly destroyed or will they be given the chance to perceive me now 4 meters away, possibly muffled by the door/wall between us?
I can't reconcile this with my own experiences. Taking it bit by bit...
Outside is really easy for stealth kills because you can have really long ranges. But you don't specify the weapon of choice here, so maybe you're talking about using a knife? If so, that squares with what I've seen. A knife is really hard to use for stealth kills, mostly because it is hard to avoid the zombie turning around to face you. (I need to use more rocks and see how that goes.)
Killing single sleepers in a group doesn't feel that hard to me, but it may be a matter of expectations and differences in level, perks, and gear. If I'm low level, without perks, and in the starter gear, then I could seeing killing one, waking the other. Or in a Tier 5 with special volumes and scripts, there are some pretty unique situations. But between those ends, I think stealth rocks.
I'm still just getting into the Tier 5 POIs for 2.6 and I can empathize, but I also think you're exaggerating. I did the 2.6 Crack-A-Book and the entire middle of that POI (other than the basement and roof) were a lovely stealth experience. Even with those two floors being wild, stealth wasn't useless, but it certainly involved some rough spots, some resorting to using the AK, and disengagement to regain stealth. A solid diet of those nasty encounters would certainly get disappointing. (I captured that 2.6 Crack-A-Book on video, though haven't shared it. I should figure out a way to do that.)
All of the Tier 4s I played (and lower) were great for stealth.
Double G
Survivor
If you miss a shot and it hits the wall you'll become more detectable. I don't fully remember but I believe that also reflects in your stealth meter. Reloading makes noise, each weapon has its own noise value, etc.
Just crouch and look at your stealth meter when you do something. It'll tell you how much detection noise you make.
Stealth is not necessarily useless but as a complete playstyle it's not very viable / not implemented well...unless you cheat, as in learn where trigger points are so you can do things to avoid them, as well as know how to pre-plan for when you have no choice but to fight zombies that you can't, under any circumstances, prevent from waking / spawning / detecting you. That requires you to learn the POIs in advance which is kinda silly to me.
I'm not personally interested in playing stealth. I did it as a challenge. So I have no dog in this fight. But from my experience, the way things are set up, I felt cheated.
What you could also do is try playing a full stealth run and see for yourself.
zztong
Hunter
Yes, the stealth meter is pretty responsive. If I fire the bow my stealth meter will go up. Harder to tell is if the arrow hitting the wall affects my stealth meter, to be perceived by the zombie at my distance from the zombie, or if the arrow hitting the wall is its own noise event that can be noticed by the zombie at the distance from the wall to the zombie. I don't currently think the arrow hitting the wall is its own noise event. I base my opinion on not noticing a lot of zombies waking up to misses, but admittedly there aren't a lot of misses other than clipping an object between them and me.
Dark Sun
Survivor
Part of the problem is if you miss and the bolt/arrow impacts something like a piece of metal, the zombies track the source of the noise to the bow/crossbow, i.e. you.
Double G
Survivor
It does.
And I just tested it to see if it shows on the meter. Hitting a wall raises the stealth meter more than hitting a zombie and different materials have different noise levels. Wood is quieter than metal, etc.
That's a good point.
Player detection is overall odd. Some of it makes a little more sense. When you throw a rock, they first run to where the rock landed and then chase after it. But even that comes across awkward because they run way out of their way to get to where it first landed and then start running toward its final position.
Zombie behavior needs more attention to detail. From a strict game perspective, it might be fine. But from an aesthetic, genre perspective...there are things that just don't add up.
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