PC V2.0 Storms Brewing Dev Diary

[Uncle Al]

You only see that as a punishment because you are looking through the eyes of a glass half empty veteran player. The other side of the coin of loot caps is the incentive of getting better loot in the higher difficulty biomes. It’s rewarding to go to high risk places to get high value loot. The only perception of punishment comes from knowing how it was before. 
 

If you can’t see a new update through fresh eyes then mod it back the way you want but it’s not a reason to not add incentives and rewards that are linked with risk. 

I'm certainly one of those players who don't see loot caps as a punishment, but more an incentive to go further afield and face higher risks.

I'm more concerned with the implied disconnect between the looting and crafting systems. I've not seen any plans to the change the current state of affairs, although they may well exist. Crafting is virtually disconnected from the loot level system, in that to advance access to crafted items all that matters is volume of looting. More books, parts and resources are important, there's no concept of quality.

Adding loot caps increases that disparity.

I'm rather surprised there's nothing such as biome only resources (bar oil shale), basic and advanced magazines (where basic can only raise skill to a certain threshold) and basic and advanced gun parts. Basic being required for lower tier guns, whereas advanced being needed for the endgame weapons.

Not only would those concepts, or something else a better designer than me can up with, allow restricting high end crafting opportunities to the more challenging biomes (by setting the loot level of advanced crafting resources under the lower biome caps), it would fix an issue with the current crafting system where one tends to craft pretty much always at very restricted thresholds. I know I'm not alone in very rarely crafting high quality lower tier firearms, because of the drive to save parts for a quality 1, higher tier weapon. A Q5 double barrel shotgun isn't actually that much better than a Q1, and crafting one will often massively slow down your access to a Q1 pump, which is vastly better than a double.

If you knew your cheaper resources had no utility for crafting endgame gear, it would encourage more active crafting along the journey. Making parts backwards compatible (advanced parts/magazines/whatever also work fine as a standin for the basic version) would also preserve the existing hard decision (although I find it's rarely an actual choice as waiting is so much more beneficial) as to whether to use up some parts now or save them for the next tier weapon a bit later.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I'm rather surprised there's nothing such as biome only resources (bar oil shale), basic and advanced magazines (where basic can only raise skill to a certain threshold) and basic and advanced gun parts. Basic being required for lower tier guns, whereas advanced being needed for the endgame weapons.

Thank you, I got to add that one, to my text #51. That could be a logical loot cap actually. So do you mean,

if weapons, armor, resources to build the same, are all split up into a spread sheet and divided into 5 groups

Crafting as well as loot levels, would match the 5 biomes in order of progression, and in order to advance

more quickly, you would have to finish each of the 5 quests, or attain the necessary, resources to overcome

the next level biome, but the resources for extended stay are hidden in the next level biome, so risk vs reward.

Is that the jist of it? If so cool.

 

[Roland]

I'm certainly one of those players who don't see loot caps as a punishment, but more an incentive to go further afield and face higher risks.

I'm more concerned with the implied disconnect between the looting and crafting systems. I've not seen any plans to the change the current state of affairs, although they may well exist. Crafting is virtually disconnected from the loot level system, in that to advance access to crafted items all that matters is volume of looting. More books, parts and resources are important, there's no concept of quality.

Adding loot caps increases that disparity.

I'm rather surprised there's nothing such as biome only resources (bar oil shale), basic and advanced magazines (where basic can only raise skill to a certain threshold) and basic and advanced gun parts. Basic being required for lower tier guns, whereas advanced being needed for the endgame weapons.

Not only would those concepts, or something else a better designer than me can up with, allow restricting high end crafting opportunities to the more challenging biomes (by setting the loot level of advanced crafting resources under the lower biome caps), it would fix an issue with the current crafting system where one tends to craft pretty much always at very restricted thresholds. I know I'm not alone in very rarely crafting high quality lower tier firearms, because of the drive to save parts for a quality 1, higher tier weapon. A Q5 double barrel shotgun isn't actually that much better than a Q1, and crafting one will often massively slow down your access to a Q1 pump, which is vastly better than a double.

If you knew your cheaper resources had no utility for crafting endgame gear, it would encourage more active crafting along the journey. Making parts backwards compatible (advanced parts/magazines/whatever also work fine as a standin for the basic version) would also preserve the existing hard decision (although I find it's rarely an actual choice as waiting is so much more beneficial) as to whether to use up some parts now or save them for the next tier weapon a bit later.

I like that idea and the model is already in the game with the legendary part added to T6 quality gear recipes. It would be in line with existing mechanics. 
 

That also means it should be pretty easy to mod in if TFP doesn’t end up extending and connecting the looting progression they’re designing with the crafting progression. 

 

[EvilPolygons]

There is nothing illogical about it. Desert next to snow happens in the real world.
Search for "picture of desert next to snow".

Except when someone sees a grenade or rocket pop out of your back as you are nicely attached to that ladder.

"Cold desert" regions are completely different than the desert biome currently in the game. They are generally high-altitude boundary zones and mostly devoid of vegetation such as large cactus or yucca. It's just silly to have a 120°F patch of desert sitting right next to a -10°F patch of tundra.

This is why a small transitional sub-biome would be nice to have between desert and snow. Or just keep desert and snow separated from each other during random world generation and avoid the problem entirely.

 

[faatal]

"Cold desert" regions are completely different than the desert biome currently in the game. They are generally high-altitude boundary zones and mostly devoid of vegetation such as large cactus or yucca. It's just silly to have a 120°F patch of desert sitting right next to a -10°F patch of tundra.

This is why a small transitional sub-biome would be nice to have between desert and snow. Or just keep desert and snow separated from each other during random world generation and avoid the problem entirely.

Not going to happen for game play reasons. We are not adding mixed biomes and they need to be next to each other for progression.

Now....elevation changes might be fun if we could get snow higher without it turning into a giant hill.

 

[Riamus]

Not going to happen for game play reasons. We are not adding mixed biomes and they need to be next to each other for progression.

Now....elevation changes might be fun if we could get snow higher without it turning into a giant hill.

Elevation based biomes are easy.  The problem is making a place in them where POI or towns can be.  A snowy mountain doesn't exactly leave much room for such things.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Not going to happen for game play reasons. We are not adding mixed biomes and they need to be next to each other for progression.

Now....elevation changes might be fun if we could get snow higher without it turning into a giant hill.

Teragon features elevation-based snow -- which is nice at first glance -- but the problem is that towns and even wildness POIs are much harder to place on high elevations because those areas tend to be mountainous. And what's the the point of a biome with hardly any POIs?

Only way to make it work well is to tweak the terrain generation to allow for proper plateau formation (not just stamps) in addition to the mountains/hills currently in game. I can't imagine TFP wants to revamp terrain procgen this late in development, though.

 

[khzmusik]

Only way to make it work well is to tweak the terrain generation to allow for proper plateau formation (not just stamps) in addition to the mountains/hills currently in game. I can't imagine TFP wants to revamp terrain procgen this late in development, though.

If you want it to be close to real life, then another way to do it is to make the "base ground level" higher for different biomes. Close to sea level for desert; and far above sea level for snow.

Anyone who has been to Denver, CO knows what I mean. They used to have a stadium called "mile high stadium" because Denver is a mile above sea level. But it's also a metropolitan city in a very large area without mountains. (The Rockies are an hour's drive to the West.)

 

[Adam the Waster]

adding mixed biomes and they need to be next to each other for progression.

I think the main issue imo is that it the snow is after the desert so its always next to each other unlike nazezgane. Maybe if there was another biome to break it apart then it would be easier on the eyes like a tempered forest or something 

 

[trogs]

They definitively don't need to be next to each other. Navezgane works great with the forest at the center. That's where most people build their bases, then we venture south to the desert, explore, go back home to store all the loot, upgrade equipment, then we're ready to go north where it's cold. It doesn't have to be linear, all exploration is tied to our base location because of the looting mechanic, we always have to go back. If we choose not to follow the trader sequence and go north first, the new elemental survival mechanic and the biome skull display will both show us we're not ready.

If you think linear biomes is the best way for new players, that's ok, but at least give experienced players the option to randomize the map in a different order, for variety's sake

 

[jetZeds]

If you want it to be close to real life, then another way to do it is to make the "base ground level" higher for different biomes. Close to sea level for desert; and far above sea level for snow.

Anyone who has been to Denver, CO knows what I mean. They used to have a stadium called "mile high stadium" because Denver is a mile above sea level. But it's also a metropolitan city in a very large area without mountains. (The Rockies are an hour's drive to the West.)

 

[EvilPolygons]

If you want it to be close to real life, then another way to do it is to make the "base ground level" higher for different biomes. Close to sea level for desert; and far above sea level for snow.

Anyone who has been to Denver, CO knows what I mean. They used to have a stadium called "mile high stadium" because Denver is a mile above sea level. But it's also a metropolitan city in a very large area without mountains. (The Rockies are an hour's drive to the West.)

Yep, I lived there for a short while, many years ago. But we don't have maps large enough for gradual slope increases over hundreds of miles. Game geography has to be condensed. Plateaus get around that problem without requiring large amounts of wasted space.

 

[khzmusik]

Yep, I lived there for a short while, many years ago. But we don't have maps large enough for gradual slope increases over hundreds of miles. Game geography has to be condensed. Plateaus get around that problem without requiring large amounts of wasted space.

I actually grew up in Monte Vista, which is part of a huge valley called the San Luis Valley. (My family moved away right before I entered junior high.) It's not Denver, but still, an average 7D2D map could be located in that valley and contain very few mountains.

If the altitude transitions were as abrupt as the biome transitions, then that would not be an improvement. But we already have gradual altitude transitions in the form of "hills," so I'm not sure how difficult it would be to smooth out those altitude transitions between biomes.

It would also depend on the altitude differences. You could make a "realistic" transition to a higher biome with a relatively small altitude difference, like maybe 20 blocks total. If the altitude transition is not abrupt, then this is certainly enough to at least place wilderness POIs.

But, this is all kind of a moot point, I doubt TFP are going to do it.

EDIT: Also, @jetZeds is absolutely correct with his meme. John Denver was absolutely full of it. My dad was almost run over by Denver when my dad was crossing the street in Aspen. Denver reacted by jumping out of the car and flipping off my dad. He was absolutely an @%$#. I'm glad that Hunter S. Thompson used to shoot icicles off of John Denver's roof.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

It is possible, this is the map I'm playing on now.

That is one of the advantages of doing it by hand, I got the Idea to do

my heightmaps manually from the way Navezgane was done.

All I have to do is paint the forest gold and reload and there is the desert terrain.

One thought that I got from reading the conversations, is if elevation is used.

It can progress from low to high terrain or the reverse as the difficulty progresses.

I normally have the full biome with pois, a blended slope, then a full biome with pois,

until I reach the bottom.







I just learned the order of process that Rwg does it, and replicated it by hand, making tweaks as I go.

Roads are the last, so that the incline is a soft enough grade for vehicle use.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

anyone know how many times microsoft and sony has denied the console to dedicated approval?

 

[Roland]

anyone know how many times microsoft and sony has denied the console to dedicated approval?

Microsoft and Sony are working together on it?!?!?!

 

[khzmusik]

anyone know how many times microsoft and sony has denied the console to dedicated approval?

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of "deny."

They have a checklist, and new versions are automatically rejected if all checks aren't all ticked off. But even if the checks are all ticked off, each new version also needs to be manually approved.

I am guessing, but in my experience most tech companies equate "manual approval" with "our contingent workers are backlogged because they can't even keep up by working 60+ hours per week." (It's how my company's QA team works.)

Not surprising that approval could take a month even if no changes are required.

 

[Old Crow]

I like that idea and the model is already in the game with the legendary part added to T6 quality gear recipes. It would be in line with existing mechanics. 
 

That also means it should be pretty easy to mod in if TFP doesn’t end up extending and connecting the looting progression they’re designing with the crafting progression. 

The only thing I don't like about the current model is needing Legendary Parts for primitive gear. No one's going to waste a Legendary Part on a stone axe, or Primitive Shoes, or a Pipe weapon. I feel like the Primitive tier shouldn't require those. Iron/Steel/Mechanical? Yes, absolutely. Primitive? No.

Kinda seems silly that Primitive goes to Tier 6 anyway. Hmm, I just had an idea that might make things interesting...

 

[Old Crow]

@faatal I know a UI overhaul is slated for 3.0 or 4.0 - any chance we might be getting something that looks less plain? I found this on Reddit, and it's VASTLY more interesting than what we currently have.

 

[Jost Amman]

Not going to happen for game play reasons. We are not adding mixed biomes and they need to be next to each other for progression.

Now....elevation changes might be fun if we could get snow higher without it turning into a giant hill.

Hey faatal! I think having zombies in the game is unrealistic! Can you remove them in 2.0 please?

That would make the game much, much better and fit my own realistic vision of the game.

Thanks  :yo: