PC Cookie cutter, everybody ends up exactly the same as everybody else, at level 300, or...

[Riamus]

Who says classes have to be limiting? Ever played a Soulsborne game? You pick a class that's statted in a certain direction, but you can turn that class into any playstyle you want. It just depends on how the player allocates future points.

I pointed out in a different post above that if you used classes as a starter setup that didn't impact anything later, it wouldn't be disliked by people as much as a limiting option that would determine how your build will be.

The original idea in the OP was to have a way to keep your characters from turning out the same once you're at max level.  Without limiting, you are still going to be the same at max level even if you start out with a specific setup from a class.  You either limit unlocking all perks by limiting levels so you can't earn enough points to unlock them all, or you limit it by having classes that only allow access to certain perks or levels or perks, or you limit it by having classes that have various special perks that only apply to those classes.  Without that, you will always end up being the same by the end... if you play to the end, which most do not.  But since the OP was discussing how to prevent everyone from being the same at max level, that's what I'm talking about and not just whether or not you can have classes that can do anything and end up looking the same at max level.

 

[theFlu]

Will the game break without these, no.  Will we be able to achieve differentness amongst the characters, yes.

Different stack sizes ... I don't hate the feature, but will they Feel different? No, because they really aren't. We have all the space we require, there are no "common" problems with stack sizes. Nothing is limited by how much you can carry, the closest thing is machine gun ammo for horde nights and even that is solved with an ammo safe at the horde site.

Getting a purely wall-hanger diploma would feel more significant to me (after a "retake your home" -mission).

Give it some honest thought, would your lvl 300 character feel different if it could carry 900 bandages or 30000 cobblestone in a stack? Would you afterwards fondly remember playing the 900 bandages guy?

Going further with the medic idea, even having a "self refreshing" medkit, as in infinite, wouldn't really do anything to remember a character by. Meds may be in a short supply, but they're not really limiting.

Having an unbreakable gatling gun might be enough - as we're already drowning in ammo, that might be enough to encourage a different playstyle. Prolly would need some ammo saving bonuses to go with it, just to override the fact that people are stingy. A high tier reward for a FORT + INT character, or some such. But as long as every character can just get it, it's not a difference.

In a way,  that might be it - make the current classes synergise "in pairs" and become significantly different once you have 10 in one and 7 in another; and cap the skill points to a level where you can eventually get two fullish trees, but no more. Borderlands, in the BL2 BL3 era, did this well (later on they got muddied into a samey mess). You had 4 classes, and each had 3 skill trees. Each of the skill trees had "game changer" perks, one early and one at the top of the tree. Getting one changed the gameplay to a decent extent, but they also synergised differently with the two other trees. While you could freely change spec within a class, each of the combos played different. But you also kinda were jealous of the features of the other classes - making you want to play through at least most of them.

There's no real "game changers" in 7dtd, at least not obvious ones. Closest to one is 2/4 parkour, the 2+ block jump opens up the world in a massive way. It's not as "flashy" as the game changers in BL, but it does allow for a new way to play. Everything else is rather incremental. So, it would take some serious redesign.

Now, I fully expect you not to like the idea, as you seem to want it all, and also want memorable differences .. that combination just isn't possible

 

[WarMongerian]

Now, I fully expect you not to like the idea, as you seem to want it all, and also want memorable differences .. that combination just isn't possible

Not at all.

YOU seem to think that if it isn't game changing (Read as game breaking), then it must be consigned to insignificant, or meaningless.  My opinion differs from yours.

I personally don't want drastic changes, and anyone that cannot be satisfied with small changes and little improvements to their characters development, isn't going to like this threads premise, and that is to provide small, but nice (NOT game changing/breaking) changes, that allow for solving the whole cookie-cutter endgame we currently have, and give us something to personalize our characters with.

I disagree with you on your stated premise that unless it is game changing, then it is meaningless.  Positive changes in character building and customization are a good thing in and of themselves, they don't also need to fall into the trap of always making the game have to have these options turned on, in every game, for every player.  Folks that would have to have such things in order to play with these notional optional settings, would be doing it just for those "significant" changes you go on about, and not for the sake of building character into something unique.

If some folks wouldn't bother with this kind of thing, nobody is forcing them to play with these notional options turned on, and frankly, I wouldn't want them to, if all they really wanted was the next big wizz-bang of mass zombies slaughtering. 

Different stack sizes ... I don't hate the feature, but will they Feel different? No, because they really aren't. We have all the space we require, there are no "common" problems with stack sizes. Nothing is limited by how much you can carry,

Your gameplay must be rather different than mine, if this is a true statement.  When I go and build my first expansion, I would like to go in with all the materials I need, all in one go, but I never have enough carrying capacity to do that, even with a level 6 drone w/four cargo mods on it.  Instead, when building a forward operating base, I have to make separate trips for rations, building materials, meds, and still have enough spare room for looting.

A big part of the problem here, is the restricted stack size of the better building materials.  Right now, if I go from the pine forest to even the burnt forest, taking stacks of cobblestone with me, I need to use 6 spaces of my carrying capacity for each equivalent to the wood, clay, & rock stacks.  Sadly, with my fingers being struck by the occasional twitching, and always numb and stiff, I cannot always count on placing a block right where I intend to, so I find it less frustrating to just use building blocks, and upgrade them from there.

Now enter the notional "Construction Worker career choice", and say I went with increasing the stack sizes.

Drat, spent to long thinking about this, and now I need a nap, back later.

 

[theFlu]

YOU seem to think that if it isn't game changing (Read as game breaking),

That's a misread. "Game changing" is like picking a rogue instead of a warrior - it isn't by design game breaking, quite the opposite.

I personally don't want drastic changes,

You wanted Specialization to make your High level characters feel different to one another, no? You sound like you're a builder, would you not want the increased stack sizes to all your characters? Would that actually provide differentiation to your characters?

When I go and build my first expansion, I would like to go in with all the materials I need, all in one go, but I never have enough carrying capacity to do that, even with a level 6 drone w/four cargo mods on it.  Instead, when building a forward operating base, I have to make separate trips for rations, building materials, meds, and still have enough spare room for looting.

You're just carrying way too much. A FOB can be done with a stack of cobble  One row in the drone for meds and foods, tools and weapons on belt, first row of your inventory for ammo etc. 4 rows, or about 40 slots for mats, and we haven't even looked at your vehicle yet. If you really want to bring a LOT of cobble to a site, bring it as clay+stone and a workbench, have the bench craft it while you build. Preferably thou, harvest it near the site you want it at.

I do build from frames as well, most of the time; might be more of a habit than anything else (I just never craft the blocks themselves until I need some for instanthorde night repairs )

I get that you want the stack sizes, and I ain't against that; for you (easy mod in xmls) or anyone else. But it seems it has nothing to do with variation in character builds...? You wouldn't skip it yourself, if it was an option, no?

 

[Riamus]

Yeah, if stack sizes matter to you, then propose that stack sizes are increased for all players.  There isn't any reason to tie that to some kind of class system.  Besides they are mostly unnecessary since we have so much space available.  Personal inventory, vehicle inventory (you should definitely have one by the time you are moving to another biome), and drone inventory once you get one.  If you are building a base, you really have no need to carry anything other than building supplies and a stack of ammo.  You can build a very large base with just your personal inventory space, upgrading from frames to steel.

Stack sizes of things like bandages or drinks and food are also not important.  You shouldn't really be going through so much between runs back to your base to unload.  I always have a single stack of bandages, food, and drink even when I'm traveling from one end of the map to another on an 8k map or running through a couple T5 POI.

So if you feel like the stack sizes should be increased, it is better to do so for all players and not have it based on class.  Don't forget that many people play solo and would not like it that they have to choose a specific class to get only the stack size increase for that one class.

If you really want to bring a LOT of cobble to a site, bring it as clay+stone and a workbench, have the bench craft it while you build.

You don't even need a workbench.  It can be crafted from inventory and you aren't really going to be crafting anything else in inventory while building.

 

[Dead Smarty]

You don't even need a workbench.  It can be crafted from inventory and you aren't really going to be crafting anything else in inventory while building.

To be fair, I tend to have workbenches running full throtle while going out exploring/mining/looting. I need my inventory crafting on the fly for repairing and scrapping . Building is for me an activity that needs preperation so let the benches do the crafting.

Edit: When mining I realy need my inventory crafting to make stacks of resources, otherwise I keep running back to base all the time.

 

[theFlu]

You don't even need a workbench.  It can be crafted from inventory and you aren't really going to be crafting anything else in inventory while building.

This is well true, but for the amounts of crafting required for about two inventories worth of cobblestone.. re-queing the stuff for random repairs gets old fast

 

[Riamus]

To be fair, I tend to have workbenches running full throtle while going out exploring/mining/looting. I need my inventory crafting on the fly for repairing and scrapping . Building is for me an activity that needs preperation so let the benches do the crafting.

Edit: When mining I realy need my inventory crafting to make stacks of resources, otherwise I keep running back to base all the time.

Yeah, but if you are just going to carry a lot of stacks of resources to build with and don't want to have the shorter stacks of cobble, you can craft it while upgrading to wood and you will be freeing space as you upgrade to wood, leaving space for the cobble.  I do it often since cobble crafts so quickly.

But yes, my workstations run all the time while I'm doing other things and I'll usually have stuff prepared before building.

This is well true, but for the amounts of crafting required for about two inventories worth of cobblestone.. re-queing the stuff for random repairs gets old fast

Heh. Depends how much you are using. I am often creating cobble just because it is easy and fast.  If I'm just building a base, there isn't any need to do repairs, so no real need to requeue stuff.  And if we are talking about saving inventory space, that means no need to carry a workbench. But there also isn't anything wrong with placing one and using it.  If you are building a main base, you will want one anyhow.  But for a horde base, I don't worry about it.

 

[WarMongerian]

I get that you want the stack sizes, and I ain't against that; for you (easy mod in xmls) or anyone else. But it seems it has nothing to do with variation in character builds...? You wouldn't skip it yourself, if it was an option, no?

This is another point of discussion we don't seem to be on the same page on.

Hypothetical "Construction career paths"

1)  Increasing stack sizes, slowly and incrementally, over time (all of which yet to be determined)....

2)  Building up skill in building 'better blocks'.  (think in terms of more expensive recipe, but higher hit point blocks)...

3)  Other things, as hitherto undrempth of.    Sorry, I couldn't resist.

You wouldn't be able to choose progress form more than one path, so choosing the one you want to explore is painful, but neither are game changing/breaking.

And of course, I am looking at characters being able to 'switch careers' over time.  I had been thinking 1st career at level 100, second at level 200, and third and final at 300, however, folks responding have pointed out that waiting to level 100, might be to long, while others have mentioned getting one right off.

Work in progress, what if"

characters unlock career paths starting at level 50 (up for discussion of course).

1st Career at 50th level.

2nd Career at 100th level.

3rd Career at 150th level.

Possibly more Career paths later on?  Each of which has at least two different trees?  Out of how many Career paths?

As an aside, you mentioning of "higher level/Hybrid" Careers is good, but lets just concentrate for the moment on the simple career paths.

If there were ten or more career paths within the game, and I could only ever get to walk down 3 of these, and only the one side of those at that, well yes, choices would abound.

When before you said the word "sacrifice", I attempted to convey my dislike of the (perceived) mindset, that one would have to give up something they otherwise deserved.  Everyone getting everything is the definition of cookie-cutter design.  No one that is playing with optional setting that eliminates that, should be stuck in the mindset that they are "giving something up", but rather that, they are being offered something new and additional, but in this part of the game, they have to make choices

I get that you want the stack sizes, and I ain't against that; for you (easy mod in xmls) or anyone else. But it seems it has nothing to do with variation in character builds...? You wouldn't skip it yourself, if it was an option, no?

I might.  Depends entirely on what I wanted to do, in any particular game.  I would always want the stack sizes, but perhaps the other option appeals more?

Say there were 10 total Career Choices under this notional idea.

Say I could only ever get three of these.

Say I can only get, at most, half of any given Career.

Plenty of choices.

Identify the two mindsets that cannot function in such optional setting, and warn them that these setting might not be for them.

 

[theFlu]

Everyone getting everything is the definition of cookie-cutter design.

You're actually using a weird version of that phrase; yes, it means everyone is a clone, made with the same cookie-cutter; but it in no way implies "everyone will get everything". It means there's an optimal way to do things, and everyone will gravitate to that. Like builds in WoW, at some point of the generatively increasing difficulty there, everyone will Have to follow the class guide to the letter, or they just won't get into raids. If there's NO possible variance, like there isn't at level 300 7dtd, then I don't really think "cookie-cutter" fits.

A choice between two things, is always a sacrifice. When you get married to a single person, you sacrifice potential relations with about 4 billion other people. That's why it's significant. When you choose to read about programming instead of playing a game, you're sacrificing immediate pleasure for a potential future gain.

The career paths you're proposing are "fine" as an idea; but when challenged by people who don't want limitations, you go "there won't be limitations, they're just flavor". And when I point out they're just flavor then, you go "they'll be real useful". How do these two things happen simultaneously - how do you not cause limitations in followers of other paths And give each path a distinct significance? The stack size part would be mostly flavor, you'd save a round trip to the mines at best, but now you suggest you'd get actually better blocks from it - that's actually significant, and will become the cookie cutter, unless you manage to give the other paths things of similar power. In that case, you've made significant limitations between them, again.

Just pick a lane. You can't please everyone, and that's fine. Especially as, tbh, such high level plans (even the 50-150 bracket) aren't something TFP want. So this is all just hypothetical - but that shouldn't stop you from designing the system and proposing it, or creating a mod for it. Build it and they'll come, or some such. But it starts with deciding what you want

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

To make level 100+ anything else than just a completionist thing and actually meaningfull, we need way more advanced enemies and a lot more of them over time as the gamestage increases.

We will see what the 2 new zombie tiers and the bandits will bring.

Until then 200 levels just sit there basically.

 

[WarMongerian]

To make level 100+ anything else than just a completionist thing and actually meaningfull, we need way more advanced enemies and a lot more of them over time as the gamestage increases.

We will see what the 2 new zombie tiers and the bandits will bring.

Until then 200 levels just sit there basically.

I take it that you don't commonly play to level 300 in you games?  I do, but then I am using the 300% XP settings, so I can see what all the game has to offer, and not tak weeks and weeks to get there.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah i have done max. level once back in the days and that was with 100%. There is nothing to benefit from anymore. I just level skills i am not going to use anyways. I don´t see the point in playing the game anymore when i get to a stage  where i am able  to defeat a s***load of zombies but we only have a handful of them in the world.

Nowadays i play until like day 50 before i start over. Longer if i play something like Darkness Falls mod where you actually have endgame enemies and a questline.

 

[Suxar]

I take it that you don't commonly play to level 300 in you games?  I do, but then I am using the 300% XP settings, so I can see what all the game has to offer, and not tak weeks and weeks to get there.

By and large, the game doesn't offer much after level 120-150. You've already leveled up everything you need for your playstyle by this point. Zombies gain more health and regeneration, turning them into bullet sponges. Solo play gets boring.

 

[WarMongerian]

By and large, the game doesn't offer much after level 120-150. You've already leveled up everything you need for your playstyle by this point. Zombies gain more health and regeneration, turning them into bullet sponges. Solo play gets boring.

Oh, I agree.  That is why I so want higher level stuff.  Zombie slaughtering is nice, but not the end all be all of enjoyment.  I am a Builder/Hoarder in game, I can amass huge piles of loot, build massive bases, and do a lot of landscaping.  Having the end game give me something to do, between new games, would be great.

Right now, I'm liking the current setup, up until 150-200, and then it becomes less and less a matter of enjoyment, and more and more about just hitting 300 for the sake of 300.  If I had many different careers to choose from, that would keep my interest all the way to, and beyond, level 300.  If I was playing single player, I wouldn't keep trying to enjoy leveling up to 300.

The career choices would solve the current issues, and give players something to work towards at the higher levels.  Having the ability to choose from many classes, gain advantages that are from two different paths, within each career, and letting folks mix and match which path/career choices (say every 50 levels, a new career choice opened up), then along about the time the current game starts to lose momentum, you have choices to make.  Unlike right now, the variety of choices would make the game be revitalized, and no one could ever have everything, from every career.

Each career would not use points that would otherwise go to attribute/perks, but have their own little mini system, and their own points, say 50 levels worth of them, and by the time you have maxed out one career choice, the it is time to pick another, and begin  How many classes would there be, and how many permutations of them would exist?

Something else to consider, is the 'rescuable' optional quests I suggested months ago, where a player could (attempt to) rescue other survivors, and if they manage it, they get an additional character slot, and can have one (or more) additional characters in that particular game, and can then work a second character up.  Only one character in game at once, of course, but being able to have a choice which character to load in as....

 

[WarMongerian]

Yeah i have done max. level once back in the days and that was with 100%. There is nothing to benefit from anymore. I just level skills i am not going to use anyways. I don't see the point in playing the game anymore when i get to a stage  where i am able  to defeat a s***load of zombies but we only have a handful of them in the world.

Nowadays i play until like day 50 before i start over. Longer if i play something like Darkness Falls mod where you actually have endgame enemies and a questline.

Not sure that the whole Career Choice thing will cure that, or would be something you didn't want to try out.

Do you find enjoyment in 7dtd, other than in the zombie killing?

Do you like character building?

For me, I would love the idea of choices, and never ending character development/individualization.

How would my characters develop?  Which path within a career would I choose?  What career would I try out this time?  What order would I take my careers?  So many choices.

Would I choose a builder/medic/hunter?  Would I mix the order up next time, choose the alternative paths, choose wholly different careers next time?

 

[Suxar]

Do you find enjoyment in 7dtd, other than in the zombie killing?

Do you play only solo? Try playing on a PvE server, it's a completely different game. There you will have to interact with other players, sometimes quite funny situations happen.

 

[Roland]

I take it that you don't commonly play to level 300 in you games?  I do, but then I am using the 300% XP settings, so I can see what all the game has to offer, and not tak weeks and weeks to get there.

Maybe some history on this will help. When TFP originally added the attributes and skills they capped the skillpoints and experience at a lower amount than it would be possible in order to get every perk and skill. They did this precisely for the reason that they wanted people to end up as different characters depending on how they chose to spend their skill points. 

Then there was feedback from people who were upset that they could not "complete" the game and so in a later update TFP increased the cap to allow for players to be able to obtain every single skill if they were willing to keep their game going that long. So the intended design is that the player considers their game won once they reach level 100-150. At level 150, imagine the credits rolling. When the story is implemented, you'll most likely be able to complete it by or before level 150. However, TFP is willing to allow players to continue playing past the point where they can consider it a win and complete everything.

As you've discovered, playing the game on default settings makes reaching that 300 level pretty difficult just from a "long and tedious" standpoint of difficulty. You've chosen to mod the settings so that you can do it more quickly and then claim that everyone ends up as cookie-cutter exactly identical characters. Most people don't do that and end their playthrough long before they reach level 300 so the truth is that very few people are ending up as cookie-cutter characters that are identical. Most people are making choices beyond just what order to purchase their perks and are instead deciding what they will buy and what they will never buy during that run.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Do you play only solo? Try playing on a PvE server, it's a completely different game. There you will have to interact with other players, sometimes quite funny situations happen.

Yeah new players with  molotovs are basically the 7 days versions of of new DnD wizards casting fireball in a closed room.  

 

[WarMongerian]

Maybe some history on this will help. When TFP originally added the attributes and skills they capped the skillpoints and experience at a lower amount than it would be possible in order to get every perk and skill. They did this precisely for the reason that they wanted people to end up as different characters depending on how they chose to spend their skill points. 

Nice history lesson.  I suspected that it was something like that, but didn't know for sure.

I myself would not be a fan of never being able to "complete" my character, if I was in a system that didn't allow me any choice on how to tweek my character.  If the only character development in the game was the system of 5 attributes, with all perk trees' nestled below them, then yea, I could see frustration if you could never get 'everything', and I can see how the feedback would come in, to give us everything.

So I do see both sides of this, but now I have to ask some questions.

Question #1)  TFP did indeed take this feedback and implement a change, did they not?  Obviously, the answer is "Yes they did".  Did they poll folks on how many (of the players) that asked for this, had actually played their characters all the way up to the (then) maximum?  It's one thing to complain about some 'limit' that might be an upper ceiling for a players character development, but how many of those that wanted completeness, had actually worked their way all the way up there?

Question #2)  How much code work was needed to make the game change from (the previously)  'incomplete'  form to the current form?  If they already had all the skills/perks, and the 5 attributes system, then I would expect that the work needed to make this happen would not be that extensive.  That being said, the game is still evolving as we speak/type, and I am fully confident that the current game, with it's 16 unspendable points, is going to change until, there are no extra points leftover at 300th level.

Question #3)  How long did it take, for the game to go from the early version, to the current complete version?  Keep in mind, all the other work needed for the whole rest of the game?

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH.

Need food, will finish this when fed...