Bring back old level system

B3zzkha

New member
Hey!

Is there any way you can opt in for the old leveling system?

Don't get me wrong, some things you should read a book for.
But i would love to see leveling weapons and tools by using them. One of the reason i brought this game from the beginning.
I play with a small group of people and most of us would pref this type of system on our server.
I know there is mod that allows this but its heavy on the pc and sadly most of us don't run newer pc or run with geforce streaming. So client sided mods is off the table.

I would love to get back the old leveling system, at least for tools, weapons.
End level of weapon and tools like the auger and stuff could still be requirement of the book system.

 
I feel like a mix of old and new might work? I don't think they're going to change it again though - they seem to subscribe to wanting leveling crafting to be as un-fun as possible.

I mean, yeah, it's exciting seeing a Crack-A-Book,. but only because crafting is completely dependent on magazines and ONLY magazines now. Hunting down magazines just isn't a fun system.

 
There are a lot of us that want that, but they have made too much money to care, your best bet is to find Jax's Action Skills mod.

 
Hey!

Is there any way you can opt in for the old leveling system?

Don't get me wrong, some things you should read a book for.
But i would love to see leveling weapons and tools by using them. One of the reason i brought this game from the beginning.
I play with a small group of people and most of us would pref this type of system on our server.
I know there is mod that allows this but its heavy on the pc and sadly most of us don't run newer pc or run with geforce streaming. So client sided mods is off the table.

I would love to get back the old leveling system, at least for tools, weapons.
End level of weapon and tools like the auger and stuff could still be requirement of the book system.
They have said they do not want LBD back, so you'd need a mod or you could play an older version of the game if you want to and are on Steam.

 
They worked and experimented with it and then made the choice to not pursue it…over 6 years ago. Yes, they’ve tweaked and made changes to progression since then but not one single change included any step back towards learn by doing. 
 

It’s not about how much money they’ve made. It’s simply that they looked into it and tried it and then decided they didn’t want it for their game. 
 

When they crowdfunded the game there was no progression system and only the goal that there would be someday but no details on exactly how it would be implemented. 
 

it’s understandable that there are people who preferred the LBD method and like the game less because of it’s loss but 6 years later it isn’t reasonable to expect them to abandon their finalized choices. It is reasonable to find a mod though. 

 
@RolandThey didn´t really try though. Also what happened to "It was always just a placeholder"? Mods have shown how you can prevent abuse and make leveling fun with a good mix of LBD, perks and recipes.


If they didn't like the system in the first place, why should they try very hard to make it work?

Everything is a placeholder until the developer decides what system they want in place.  Something can be a placeholder and then morph into the final system once the game is done if they decide during development that it is what they want, or it could be a pure placeholder and then replaced when they have a different working system in place.  I have done mods for myself and I have had both situations arise.

And as you stated in your post, there are mods out there for players that want LBD to return.

 
@RolandThey didn´t really try though. Also what happened to "It was always just a placeholder"? Mods have shown how you can prevent abuse and make leveling fun with a good mix of LBD, perks and recipes.
If they didn't really try LBD, why are so many people posting about how A16 was a great example of LBD?  Apparently, they did try and those who liked it thought it worked well.  But the end result is that they did not want LBD and so have implemented LBR.  There isn't any chance they'll reimplement LBD, though they may adjust LBR before gold, if they see ways to improve it.

Also, don't forget that we already have a hybrid system.  LBR is only for crafting.  Everything else is still LBD.  No, it isn't Skyrim style LBD, where everything you do adds points to a specific skill (running, jumping, etc.).  But it is still a form of LBD, one where everything you do adds points to a general experience point pot.  What happens when you kill, mine, or craft something?  You gain experience.  You then use that experience to gain or improve skills (perks) in order to get better.  So you are learning those perks by doing something - killing, mining, crafting, etc.  Instead of having to do a specific action repeatedly to improve it, you can instead do any action that gives experience and then pick and choose what you want to improve.  Personally, I prefer that.  I very quickly hated LBD in Morrowind and it didn't really get better in Oblivion.  Skyrim was somewhat improved since it didn't have anywhere near as many LBD skills, but it was still a pain.  A general experience pool to improve your choice of skills/perks is just a much nicer option for many players, such as myself.

What really changed is crafting*.  Instead of finding the majority of your recipes randomly in loot as schematics, or getting them as part of a book that you randomly find in loot, you now get your recipes by reading magazines that you randomly find in loot.  In a way, it is the same thing.  You just have a "generic" magazine that you have to read X times to get a set of crafting recipes now instead of each recipe being a random find.

* As a caveat, I did not play this game in A16, so I don't know what else changed related to LBD.  But the biggest complaints about it in the last couple of years have revolved around magazines, which is what I am specifically referring to here.

 
@RolandThey didn´t really try though. Also what happened to "It was always just a placeholder"? Mods have shown how you can prevent abuse and make leveling fun with a good mix of LBD, perks and recipes.


I meant that they tried out LBD enough to realize that they didn't want to continue investing in it to fine tune and really develop it beyond the initial experimentation. I didn't mean that they tried to make it work and improve upon it. They decided it wasn't the direction they wanted to go so obviously they wouldn't spend time trying to deepen it, solve the problems of it, and enhance it.

It was a placeholder system in the sense that they began adding progression as a function of the player gaining points in the background that would improve their crafting and skills. At first (A11 and A12) there was zero skillpoint spending but from A13 to A16 skillpoint spending became more and more prominent. A16 was a hybrid system where you could learn by doing or spend skillpoints. IRCC, crafting was dropped from being a function of LBD for the most part in A15 and "spam crafting" was completely gone by A16.  In A17 they completed the arc they were traveling and LBD disappeared and everything became completely skillpoint spending.

The entire experimentation phase of player progression from A11 - A17 was about 5 years worth of time. It hasn't changed since A17 except for when they split crafting off from skillpoint spending and made it a function of magazine reading. Now that they are multiplatform and under restrictions of not destroying player saves with new updates the window of ever being able to revert to an entirely different system than what we have right now is most certainly closed. There is no way they could preserve player game saves and overhaul the progression system back to an A16 model at this point. 

It's just best for people to accept the truth and find good mods that do what they want the game to do for them when it comes to LBD. The devs created a great base platform and our community has great and talented modders. There's no reason to keep harping on and asking the devs to go back. A kid might throw a tantrum and be able to convince their mom to buy them a candy bar while they are still in the checkout line of the supermarket, but definitely not once they're in the car driving away and the supermarket is 5 miles behind them...

 
If they didn't really try LBD, why are so many people posting about how A16 was a great example of LBD? 
To be fair "so many" is an estimate.  One that I would disagree with.

To be pedantic A16 was not a great example of LBD, it was significantly exploitable.

Notwithstanding that, yes a fair number of players do prefer a LBD system over books and magazines.

As a part time educator people learn and generate ability from both domains.  Would a hybrid system be more realistic? Sure.  Would it be more fun? Debatable.  As whichever is your primary learning domain will still be preferred.

 
why are so many people posting about how A16 was a great example of LBD? 
Most people who say A16 / LBD was great follow it up with the caveat that it did need work - ain't nobody liked hugging cacti for "armor use skills".

So you are learning those perks by doing something - killing, mining, crafting, etc.  Instead of having to do a specific action repeatedly to improve it, you can instead do any action that gives experience and then pick and choose what you want to improve. 
You're just conflating the terms there - LBD is "use a skill to improve that skill"; general XP is different. It's not LBD to become better at cooking by bashing zeds.

 
Most people who say A16 / LBD was great follow it up with the caveat that it did need work - ain't nobody liked hugging cacti for "armor use skills".

You're just conflating the terms there - LBD is "use a skill to improve that skill"; general XP is different. It's not LBD to become better at cooking by bashing zeds.
So perhaps I exaggerated.  This conversation tends to lead a bit to that.  No, no one said it was perfect.  But they do point to it as being what they want.  My point was about what I responded to -- they obviously did try it, unlike what was stated.

There are a variety of ways games do LBD.  Skyrim style (or Morrowind, if you want to extreme version) is not the only way.  People who like that method tend to treat it as the only "real" LBD and that nothing else is LBD.  However, it really is no different to improve your ability to use a weapon to kill by swinging it in the air at nothing versus killing things to get experience that you spend to improve a weapon skill/perk.  Yes, general experience lets you choose what you improve without having to spend time doing a specific thing 1000 times, but in the end, you are still improving your abilities by doing things.  If the game separates my kill experience from my mining experience from my crafting experience and I use each individually to improve those skills, or if the game has all of that combined into a single experience pool and I use that to improve my skills, I'm doing the same thing.

The difference is player choice.  Instead of having to jump thousands of times to reach parkour 4, I can instead just do a lot of killing of zombies.  Instead of making it about gaming the system by jumping everywhere, I instead play the game and kill zombies, which is what the game is about.  Instead of "hugging cacti" to improve armor skills because it's more efficient than fighting zombies, which you might do without taking damage, I can improve those skills by actually fighting.

For people who want to mainly mine or craft or farm or cook, they can do so and still improve their fighting skills so they can go out and fight decently whenever they want to, without having to spend hours swinging a weapon in the air or jumping around or sprinting everywhere or hurting themselves repeatedly or whatever else.  They can do what they want in the game and still gain in abilities that are unrelated so if and when they want to do something else for a bit, they can do so without being underskilled.

You have a group of players who prefer the Skyrim method.  These tend to be players who have a lot of time on their hands.  They enjoy having to do a lot of random stuff to improve in their skills, regardless how much wasted time it takes where they aren't really playing the game.  Sure, they can gain skill experience by playing the game (killing stuff, or whatever), but if they want to be efficient, it's far faster to gain most skill experience by doing random things that aren't really playing the game.  But they like that.

Then you have most other players who don't enjoy spending time doing these random things to get better, but prefer just to play the game.  They tend to have less time on their hands (I'm not referring to casual gamers, just to be clear).  They enjoy going out and just enjoying the game itself, whether that's fighting, crafting, mining, building, etc.  They don't want to have the efficient way of improving be something like jumping everywhere they go or swinging their weapon constantly while they are walking around.

Neither option is right or wrong.  Neither option is better or worse.  Just because some people like one over the other doesn't make it factually better.  It is nothing more than personal preference or opinion.  In the end, you will usually find that most players don't prefer the Skyrim style in games.  To be clear, if a game uses the Skyrim style, the people who tend to choose to play the game will usually prefer that style, so it appears that the majority of players prefer that style.  But that just means those games lose out on a lot of potential players because those players don't like that style.  I don't have any general poll results that aren't tied to a specific game that shows how many prefer Skyrim style versus non-Skyrim style, but I have a strong feeling (I admit I could be wrong), that more than half of all players (still not counting casual gamers) prefer a general experience pool over Skyrim style for improving skills.  That doesn't mean they won't play a Skyrim style game, just like those who prefer Skyrim style will still play games with a general experience pool.  But if you're looking solely at what people prefer, I think most prefer a game that gives players the choice of how to level up, regardless how they gain the experience.

 
People who like that method tend to treat it as the only "real" LBD and that nothing else is LBD.
I don't think this is a case of "some people have tunnel vision about definitions". Your description is way too wide to what is referred to with LBD; essentially any system with any character progress would be included. If you Honestly think that, then why do you think any people are disagreeing with you? They're just saying the level up system of 16 was great, no? It's the same system as we have now as it's all LBD...? :)

Now, I don't disagree much with the rest of that post; players like different things. Your examples of bad LBD systems (jumping everywhere to level up jumping) aren't that convincing - not everything needs be that strictly LBD to have a satisfying result. Your example of jumping could be tied into a general athleticism, which would increase through sprinting etc.

I would go a step further and have a two-part system, where you gain a long term ability and a short term ability; you keep the long term permanently, and earn the short-term fast, but also lose it quickly. When swapping your weapon you'll skill up fast in one category, giving some good basic boost after a little while, and still keeps trickling up in the long term stat. This could make swapping weapons feel a bit risky, but also awesome as you start powering it up quickly.

Back when 7dtd was more "realistic", LBD was a great choice; but the development since A16 has been steering towards an arcade style shooter, grinding for skills isn't really a feature of doom... I don't mind weird continuity issues in my skills while zeds are just honestly being teleported on top of me on GM's whims...

 
In most threads I see here about LBD, the comments in support of it relate to Skyrim or A16 and support that style.  Of course, there are different styles and different ways you can do things.  My definition was intentionally broad to point out that the end result is the same.  Obviously, people don't consider a general experience pool to be LBD or else you wouldn't have a lot of people who are anti-LBD.  What the anti-LBD people don't like isn't that you improve by doing things (as I said, you are doing that even with a general experience pool).  What they don't like is being tied to a system that promotes doing stuff like jumping around everywhere as being the more efficient way of improving.

And it doesn't change just by tying multiple skills together.  As I pointed out, Morrowind is the extreme version - nothing is tied together.  On the other hand, Skyrim is far less extreme as some things are tied together.  Now, you will likely have more people who like how Skyrim is versus how Morrowind is because things are tied together.  But you're still going to have a lot of players (I stand by my belief that it's more than half, and likely closer to 3/4) who don't like LBD and prefer a general experience pool.

To be clear, I think Skyrim is a good game, and I'll play it occasionally.  But it's definitely not a top game for me.  I don't enjoy the LBD in it, or even the leveling system, and it just generally feels like a big empty map to me.  And the majority of skills never improve for me because I'm not willing to spend a ton of time doing random stuff to improve them.  So it's a good game, but not great (for me).  I prefer games with a general experience pool, or ones that are mostly a general experience pool, with only limited aspects of LBD.  I don't want to spend time doing random stuff to improve.  I'd rather just play the game.  I can deal with a game that requires a relatively small number of something to be crafted in order to improve crafting (ala most MMO style RPGs), but even then I'd prefer not to have to spend time doing that, and if the quantity you have to craft is too high just to improve to the next level, then I will usually drop the game.  If it's 10 or 20, I can live with it, even if I don't really like it.  If it's limited to crafting, it isn't horrible.  But if I have to do that for every aspect of improvement, it just isn't something I enjoy.

I can tell you that if this game went to LBD, I would probably stop playing it entirely.  Thankfully, the devs also don't want LBD, so I don't have to worry about it.

And, just to bring this back around to the OP... the OP specifically referred to the magazine system as a reason why they want LBD back.  They don't want to read magazines to be able to craft better weapons and tools.  They want to do that by just crafting a lot of them (presumably... I doubt they mean they should get better at crafting them by using the tools or weapons).  That's just a waste of time and resources and the only reason it benefits someone versus finding magazines is that a person never has to leave the base to find magazines.  They'd still maybe need to leave for resources for crafting, but they wouldn't have to look for magazines.  And it means they can just rush through the crafting tiers without having any RNG to deal with.  So, based on the OP, they aren't even really talking about LBD for anything other than crafting a ton of copies of something to improve crafting skills.  Maybe they want it for other things, but that isn't even really what they are talking about.

 
Was it really LBD, or was that the umbrella term coined to justify what was really done?  It seemed to be closer to
a lot of BS. This was and still is undeniably proven by looking at videos streams.

There were and are no major failures, no severe loss of resources forcing a player to expand into hunting more resources,
which in-turn would cause more inclusion of migratory expansion to find resources and risk or choice.  Harvesting at a 100%
yield inspires more LBD BS. There was a specialization of resources per biome which incurred risk.

The production timer was and still is too forgiving. No degradation of stations or loss of parts because of excessive
use without maintenance or up keep, No breakdowns.

But then you always got or get pretty much the same amount of meat, leather, feathers, ore etc yielded every time depending
on your tool level which inspired more tool use and production LBD BS.

The thing that I'm most fond of from a16 and prior was the largeness, solitariness and simplicity of the game, basically less subtly

inspired you to do more. Playing where is Waldo to find the traders was fulfilling. Treasure hunting was just that, it was inconvenient
and a PITA risk, but worth it. I don't really miss the LBD BS.

The only LBD I've seen was and still is being done by TFP and the modders. They try test fail retry and eventually succeed.
So that's why the "LBD Basic Spamming system" probably won't return. But I could be wrong.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
the OP specifically referred to the magazine system as a reason why they want LBD back.
Well, ACHually... =D

OP didn't mention magazines other than to say "some things should still be in the book system" (paraphrasing, and oddly put by him, but that's what I get from it), and that he'd want weapons and tools be improved by using them. Using. Perhaps I'm reading a lot into a single word, but there aren't that many words in the OP to begin with 😛 

So, based on the OP, they aren't even really talking about LBD for anything other than crafting a ton of copies of something to improve crafting skills.
They literally did not say that thou, and I think the implication is in the using-side...

I'm refraining from being rude, here.

What they don't like is being tied to a system that promotes doing stuff like jumping around everywhere as being the more efficient way of improving.
Indeed, I'm pro-LBD and even I agree, making a jumping-training-system where you have to bounce like a bunny rabbit all over the map to obtain a meaningful improvement to your jumping is a stupid system. Limit the gains from consecutive jumps; tie other things into it; make jumping so expensive that you just can't and thus won't; don't make the gain "too significant"* etc etc. There are ways to reduce the push for stupidity. This is not an inherent flaw of LBD, just a stupid skyrim system.

* too significant: you have a fixed world where you can't jump high enough for some purposes, combat or exploring or whatever - without first doing a 10k jumps elsewhere. Less significant: you can craft ladders where you'd need em.

 
Well, ACHually... =D

OP didn't mention magazines other than to say "some things should still be in the book system" (paraphrasing, and oddly put by him, but that's what I get from it), and that he'd want weapons and tools be improved by using them. Using. Perhaps I'm reading a lot into a single word, but there aren't that many words in the OP to begin with 😛 
I'd have to disagree here, but perhaps you are correct.  Only the OP can clarify it.  But if you start your argument by saying some things should be tied to books, what else are you talking about?  What has changed related to LBD that has anything to do with "books" (which could certainly refer to magazines)?  Crafting.  Now, unless they are console and haven't played the game since the old version of the console game, the difference relates to crafting and not to leveling fighting skills.  If they are console, then they very well may be meaning leveling fighting skills.  Even so, the reference to using books still suggests they are talking about magazines, especially as the lead-in to their argument.  After all, the change from what I understand from A16 to now related to LBD and fighting skills (or tool use skills) was to implement perks.  Not books, but perks.  Perhaps the OP meant perks, but it's far more likely that they meant magazines when saying books than to mean perks when saying books.  But anything is possible if they are using translation software from another language.  If they respond, they can clarify it.  Otherwise, we will just have a different view of what they meant.  My thoughts on LBD don't change regardless.

Indeed, I'm pro-LBD and even I agree, making a jumping-training-system where you have to bounce like a bunny rabbit all over the map to obtain a meaningful improvement to your jumping is a stupid system. Limit the gains from consecutive jumps; tie other things into it; make jumping so expensive that you just can't and thus won't; don't make the gain "too significant"* etc etc. There are ways to reduce the push for stupidity. This is not an inherent flaw of LBD, just a stupid skyrim system.

* too significant: you have a fixed world where you can't jump high enough for some purposes, combat or exploring or whatever - without first doing a 10k jumps elsewhere. Less significant: you can craft ladders where you'd need em.


I agree to the concept of what you describe... if implemented well.  I don't agree with 10k jumps as a good option, because it means people who don't want to do that will hate the system even more because they'll never complete it and those who are efficiency addicts will spend an hour or two straight just to complete it as quickly as possible.  But having alternative options available that might be a little less efficient or easy (having to craft or buy a ladder to use instead of just jumping) is a decent option.  But it's walking on the edge.  It is very easy to step over into it being too much hassle to do the alternative that you're in the same situation you are with a game like Skyrim, or you step the other way into a situation where LBD isn't worth doing at all and you might as well not have it rather than spending dev time trying to make it work.  I know Skyrim isn't the only example of LBD, but it is the most used example I see from people (other than A16) who discuss wanting LBD here, not to mention that it's something a lot of people are familiar with and have played, so understand what's being discussed, which is why I use it as an example.  Other LBD options that are closer to general experience than they are to Skyrim are better options, imo.  I'm not entirely against LBD.  I just don't care for the style that I've described.  But it is a style a lot of people who talk about LBD seem to like, based on the various threads about it.

 
I'd have to disagree here, but perhaps you are correct.  Only the OP can clarify it. 
Sure, but you haven't read the OP, so it seems you might want to start with that.

What has changed related to LBD that has anything to do with "books" (which could certainly refer to magazines)?  Crafting.
The Old system was to have crafting leveled by crafting, next iteration was to require unlock recipes for steel tier. That could easily work, learn to craft by using, unlock better tiers with schematics.

Now, unless they are console and haven't played the game since the old version of the console game,
And this is where I point out that you haven't read the OP, he describes the group is playing on a server on old PCs and not wanting to install mods on them. I'll stop here since you seem to be just making @%$# up as you go ...

 
Sure, but you haven't read the OP, so it seems you might want to start with that.

The Old system was to have crafting leveled by crafting, next iteration was to require unlock recipes for steel tier. That could easily work, learn to craft by using, unlock better tiers with schematics.

And this is where I point out that you haven't read the OP, he describes the group is playing on a server on old PCs and not wanting to install mods on them. I'll stop here since you seem to be just making @%$# up as you go ...
Actually, I did read it.  And OP also refers to the person and not just the post.  I was saying the person could clarify it.  As I said, it starts out the argument by referencing books.  Your response to my comment (quoted here) about what has changed that relates to books was related to crafting, which is what I said.  You didn't give an example of a change related to getting better at using weapons or tools from books.  You do mention using the weapon or tool to gain some skill in crafting, but not improving the tier.  If that's how it worked, then that's fine.  As I mentioned earlier, I haven't used A16 and can't respond directly to how that system worked other than what I've read about it.  In any case, it is not clearly worded such that you can say with certainty that they meant magazines or schematics.  You may be right, which I did state, or I may be right.  And it makes little sense to worry about it anyhow, since it has to impact on either of our opinions about LBD.

I gave the console example as a way to show that that would be a reason why someone would mean what you are saying.  Look at how that was worded... "Now, unless they are console and haven't played the game since the old version of the console game, the difference relates to crafting and not to leveling fighting skills."  Perhaps this is a little ambivalent in what it might mean, but it was intended as ... "if they were console, which they aren't, then the difference relates to crafting."  The "which they aren't" was implied because the OP clearly states they are PC.  If that was confusing, then I apologize for it, but it isn't a reason to be rude about it.

 
Back
Top