PC Dew collector nerf in New update?

[RipClaw]

I recall coming back to my base and finding holes carved in it by screamers (you could tell it was screamers because the trail of destruction always ended underneath my crafting stations) while I was gone, but I think that was mostly from A16.4.

It is possible that a screamer spawned while the chunk was still loaded. The chunk is not immediately removed from the memory when you leave it.

But as long as you are far enough away, the chunk does not exist. You can see this, for example, when you still see zombies lying on the street that you killed days or weeks ago. The chunk was basically frozen in time and the despawn timer of the corpse was not running.

 

[Gr.o.m.]

But only then. Otherwise I have no control over the heat production. With all other workbenches I can control when heat is generated.

I don't want the screamers to spawn when I turn on the chemistry station? Then I switch off a forge and the heat remains at a low level.

I do not have this kind of on/off switch with the dew collectors. When they have been emptied, they run uninterrupted for the next 60 minutes.

What about placing a landclaim block, picking them up and putting them in a box?

I don't like the watechanges, but complaining about a workstation generating heat, is not the thing I would protest about.

 

[pahbi]

Created a quicky modlet to remove dew collector heat, if that helps.

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/26048-a21-modlets-craft-water-from-snow-or-buckets-fast-plant-growth-and-more/

 

[meganoth]

Depends on the player and his playing style. Since the heat is only relevant when you are close enough for the chunk to be loaded, players who are mostly on the go won't notice much. And it's too late for it to be just an internal mechanic and that the player has to find out how it works. There are videos out there that show you how to set up a screamer farm and how the heat mechanic works in detail.

I would call that watching a spoiler video and hey, that is everyone's own decision whether to watch that before playing the game. But even if you know, the important detail about an internal mechanism is that it does not matter if it is realistic or not, it just controls screamer spawn behind the scenes.

As long as screamers spawn in relation to the size and power of your base (which seems to be the intended correlation) then it doesn't matter how that value is reached or whether that abstraction is realistic.

That doesn't mean that it may be badly balanced right now, just the principle is fine.

And as I wrote in a different post, screamer hordes can get pretty quickly out of hand. Calling it a visit from a few zombies is an understatement.

Yes, correct. In A20 we had some multiplying screamers visit our base. In normal difficulty in forest biome!

Instead of trying to kill the screamers which simply didn't work we had to use knowledge about an internal mechanism  and run far enough away to despawn them. Not sure if it still can happen, but I think multiplying screamers should be relegated to the wasteland.

 

[Maxil20]

I personally wish the heat mechanic was a toggle on the world options (like with blood moon hordes or the like) to suit your playstyle. While I understand the heat mechanics are neat from a survival perspective and I do like working around them in the early to mid game, I really don't like them lategame when I'm trying to build structures and the like. I feel like it throws a wrench to a lot of my build plans and (in my opinion) are not very fun to workaround with somewhat cheesy-ish solutions (like stashing all of your workstations a distance from your main base).

For instance, I built this area (named The Dewroom tm) that I made for funzies. I absolutely didn't need it given how it's a solo world and I needed 3-4 tops, but I thought it would be neat to make a silly build themed around it. I can't really use it now without luring screamers constantly, especially since it's a bunker-style base and they keep digging on the surface.

 

Spoiler

 

[Khalagar]

Maybe I'm biased since I already play on high difficulty with feral senses on, and high zombie count + a mod that makes wandering hordes more common too, but I still just don't get this crazy backlash lol

I have 4 dew collectors + a forge + 2 cement mixers going 24/7 and usually my campfire is going most of the day too, and spend a lot of time mining in the area like 20 feet from my base

Every so often I'll go out and whack a screamer on the head, and kill any horde she summons, then go back to what I was doing. Even when screamers summon screamers that summon screamers I just back up to my fortified killbox entrance to my base, and treat it like a mini horde night, then go on about my buisness with an extra level worth of exp.

Guess it's a playstyle diff, but the backlash seems extreme to me for what seems like a reasonable balancing change. Dew collector generates free water, so of course it needs some offset to make it a survival game, and no the cost to buy a filter doesn't matter when you get one for free and dukes are more plentiful than stones on the ground

 

[RipClaw]

What about placing a landclaim block, picking them up and putting them in a box?

I don't like the watechanges, but complaining about a workstation generating heat, is not the thing I would protest about.

If I put them in a box then I don't need to set them up at all.

The dew collectors are too slow not to run them constantly. Each dew collector produces 3 jars of water in about 60 minutes of real time. And during this time, 3 dew collectors generate the same heat as a forge that runs continuously.

The heat thing has only been an topic for about the last 12 hours since it was added with the patch b232. There have been other complaints about the water mechanics before in other posts.

 

[Lasher]

Lasher, your posts were full of insults and toxic statements.  Take a chill pill man. 

Right. Show me either.

 

[RipClaw]

For instance, I built this area (named The Dewroom tm) that I made for funzies.

Nice. Reminds me a bit of the G-Cans near the town of Kasukabe in Japan.

Spoiler

 

[RhinoW]

This is an interesting change. Lots of ways to deal with it. I think any free resource production should have some influence in how noticable this is for all aggressive entities. For the simple fact that you can easily cheese this in MP and become the king of water and duct tape on the server. You get get ridiculous dukes from selling that with no upper limit.

Also this makes perfect sense if you add Bandits and their heatmap to this concept. Those npc types I am sure would take note of a clean water source in their area. This places water into an area of concern when defending. Right now mine is just sitting out in the open.

I mean, you just described the problem that TFP created with the addition of dew collectors, the moment you add a passive resource generator that has no limit, what do you expect people to do? Of course they're gonna buy a water filter every chance they get, its the only way to not die of thirst now, people are going to "abuse" it, or in other words, use it for its literal purpose, and be "kings of water".

But unlike the campfire, the forge, mining and anything else in the game that generates heat, this one is not optional nor "stoppable", unless you count leaving the dew full, but that's the same as saying to just use the chamber round instead of the magazine to make the weapon more balanced when missing a shot, the weapon was made to use the full magazine.

So, again, unlike anything else, this one is perpetual and mandatory. You don't need the forge up and running 24/7, even though we all leave it melting resources, you don't need the campfire up and running, but we all leave it cooking some long duration food, you're not always using the workbench, but when you do, you're either doing active crafts or leaving a vehicle to be crafted. You're actively doing it, by your own hand, to do something that you don't really require to survive, but it sure as hell increases your chances.

The dew collector on the other hand, is always there, and is mandatory to be there, considering how little water it provides on its own, with you outside or inside the base. I also play MP with 3 other friends, and never did we even think of selling water nor being "kings of water" with 4 dew collectors on our base. There's no point in selling water first of all, as getting dukes is easy. What you described is simply not a reality, there's no "cheesing" it, the cheese is the trader itself. Alas, I got no problems with this change, as we constantly get screamers on our base anyways, and its free XP.

I agree with the bandits part, but zombies have no concept of economy, they just follow noise and activity, the dew collector makes no sense from that standpoint. But again, we all know realistic sense isn't the point here, it's a game design choice, but one that doesn't address the problem, and simply creates a distraction from it and drawback. Like nerfing a firearm by giving a 20% chance of dysentry with each shot instead of making it rarer, or more expensive or rebalancing its stats.

And yeah, there are multiple ways to deal with this new change. 7.62 to the head, crossbow bolt, sledgehammer, pistol magdump...etc

 

[hiemfire]

So basically either let them get full to minimize possibility of screamers which then further limits the amount of water we get or keep collecting So they keep producing increase the chances of screamers which can easily get out of control? 

Drinking from a lake with the set damage from doing so sounds less punishing.

 

[Lasher]

Since your current position seems so extreme I have no idea how to even be in the same hemisphere. I frankly don't know why you still play the game or do EA at all.

Do you really think feedback like

is talking about facts or seriously discussing the game and the changes? Don't you see that you are just having a tantrum there? Why should anyone take you serious?

They are not infallible, sure. They missed the quality overlap between stone tools and tier 1 tools and didn't notice it. Many, including me by the way, told them about this being wrong in a matter of fact way and they changed it. Not by standing on a sandbox and shouting "Are they lazy, incompetent or what?"

(They currently are also wrong with stealth (probably) and there need to be balance fixes eventually. But because I don't have played a full stealth game yet and compared it to a STR or FOR play I can't exactly say anything for sure. Does that make me careful with what I am saying or a believer?)

The dew collector solution is ok and accomplishes what it sets out to do, but I wouldn't say it is their best idea. But the heat change is fine and easily understandable if you accept what heat means in the game. I am not just making up theories, there are precedents in other games, even board games where it is apparent to everyone that such a mechanism is just an abstraction.

Well ofc you'd label my position "extreme" - that's again the label for any dissent.

As for why I do "EA" - I do it plenty - in games that respect the term - so let's not roll out that old chestnut of an excuse eh?

Once again - there was nothing "Tantrum" about it - my position is that there's some serious problems with the way TFP develop - I'm unaware of the cause but if you speak to any serious games or software dev and show them this project they'll tell you that after 10 years it's a car crash.

The last parts of your post were interesting - it was bordering on criticism - which is exaclty what TFP are in dire need of.

 

[warmer]

I mean, you just described the problem that TFP created with the addition of dew collectors, the moment you add a passive resource generator that has no limit, what do you expect people to do? Of course they're gonna buy a water filter every chance they get, its the only way to not die of thirst now, people are going to "abuse" it, or in other words, use it for its literal purpose, and be "kings of water".

But unlike the campfire, the forge, mining and anything else in the game that generates heat, this one is not optional nor "stoppable", unless you count leaving the dew full, but that's the same as saying to just use the chamber round instead of the magazine to make the weapon more balanced when missing a shot, the weapon was made to use the full magazine.

I play solo and often have my forge/campfire/dew collector running.

day 14 and I haven't had a single screamer from heat yet. Everyone is blowing this WAY out of proportion. If you have a dozen water collectors expect a ramp up in difficult do to cheesing mechanics. Seems fair to me.

 

[RhinoW]

I play solo and often have my forge/campfire/dew collector running.

day 14 and I haven't had a single screamer from heat yet. Everyone is blowing this WAY out of proportion. If you have a dozen water collectors expect a ramp up in difficult do to cheesing mechanics. Seems fair to me.

Well I play with 300% XP and block damage, so we ramp up on gamestage, maybe that has to do with it. I'm also constantly doing stuff whenever I'm at base, it's a sh*t ton of noise always and we get screamers pretty often

 

[Slingblade2040]

Maybe I'm biased since I already play on high difficulty with feral senses on, and high zombie count + a mod that makes wandering hordes more common too, but I still just don't get this crazy backlash lol

I have 4 dew collectors + a forge + 2 cement mixers going 24/7 and usually my campfire is going most of the day too, and spend a lot of time mining in the area like 20 feet from my base

Every so often I'll go out and whack a screamer on the head, and kill any horde she summons, then go back to what I was doing. Even when screamers summon screamers that summon screamers I just back up to my fortified killbox entrance to my base, and treat it like a mini horde night, then go on about my buisness with an extra level worth of exp.

Guess it's a playstyle diff, but the backlash seems extreme to me for what seems like a reasonable balancing change. Dew collector generates free water, so of course it needs some offset to make it a survival game, and no the cost to buy a filter doesn't matter when you get one for free and dukes are more plentiful than stones on the ground

As I've been told before just because you play that way doesn't mean the average player does. After all the pimps don't adjust this game to us but for new players or average players. 

Doesn't matter about the dukes you still have to work to get them, the cost is still a cost which is almost as much as doing a tier 3 or so quest, not to mention time invested to collect materials.

Maybe bullets being mass crafted in a work bench should generate heat as well right and those bulk crafted ones should produce even more since it's a bulk craft.

This water doesn't stack, this isn't a furnace that has fire to melt ingots, you aren't cutting down a massive tree to use this, you can't turn it off. This is a tarp with sticks. Having it produce *heat* so it can summon screamers is a ridiculous nerf. That's the backlash. Hell I don't use the dew collector and think it's a dumb item to make and even I can see a ridiculously unnecessary nerf.  There is no legitimate excuse for this nerf.

I play solo and often have my forge/campfire/dew collector running.

day 14 and I haven't had a single screamer from heat yet. Everyone is blowing this WAY out of proportion. If you have a dozen water collectors expect a ramp up in difficult do to cheesing mechanics. Seems fair to me.

How exactly is that cheering mechanics? Feel free to explain. 

 

[RhinoW]

I could understand if there's an advanced Dew Collector/Moisture Farm Condenser (thank you, Tatooine) that uses electricity but generates more water. That might even make sense and be progression into the late game as an item you could build anywhere.

...but a piece of plastic that just catches ambient moisture, uses no electricity, and has no heat source?

This seems to just be them trying to force the "You WILL raid, you WILL quest, and you WILL like it!" on people against their will, which is just stupid. Let people play the damn game the way they want. That was the beauty of this game when I first picked it up a decade-ish ago. You could kind of do what you wanted and play how you wanted. You could loot and raid, or you could bunker up and craft. I was worried when they added Trader quests that they were going to eventually push down this route of it not merely being the optimal way to progress your character (it is) but eventually be the REQUIRED way to progress your character. When they made the zombies able to chew through concrete, steel, and ore with ease, it as already leaning that way. When they made the best items only available by looting and not by crafting (even low tier equipment), it was leaning that way.

But the water and farming and especially skillbook changes seem to be designed just to stick it to people that like the crafting and building aspects of the game to force them into engaging with the questing/looting content, where before players could choose how they wanted to play. Since someone mentioned D&D, it'd be like if the GM insisted everyone play a character that uses magic - or that doesn't - or something instead of letting the players express themselves the way they choose to play the game.

I really just want to make a personal appreciation for this post. As it is very much spot on with what happened to the game. Ever since A17 this has become a looter shooter, anyone who disagrees, I'm sorry to say, but you're in denial. The basebuilding/defense is 30/70 with the questing/looting, because you're not scavenging for materials anymore, you're rushing a PoI for that sweet end of dungeon loot. Pair that up with perks, a constant trader market requirement (cemented with the dew collector now), and it's more fallout than 7 days to die now. But still, not a bad game by any means as I mentioned in another post.

Alas, it is their vision of the game, and I just hope we get proper modding tools to add completely custom stuff in the future, without any jankyness or weird limitations, until then, I'll remain optimistic. But I really hope they don't release the game and keep modding and lack of polish the way it is.

 

[seven]

Once full they no longer generate heat.

So the solution is don't drink the water.

 

[Renathras]

Oooo, this screams "Don't base build".

  
This is what it seems like to me, as well.

As I say, I've been playing this game for years. You can see my low post count here to see that it takes things being significantly onerous to get me to come to the forum to post about it. If I'm posting about a thing here, it's significantly bad enough to get my attention.

Base building and crafting are my two favorite parts of this game. I run missions or loot stuff when I'm first starting out, or as a dalliance later on, but those aren't the things I like about the game. And don't give me that "Complains about zombies in a zombie game" BS! As I say, I've been playing this game for the better part of 10 years. When I first started, Zombies didn't eat through steel like they started to after a17/18 somewhere in there. They didn't dig to bedrock to get you like they did in a19 and on. The game wasn't Trader/Quest-centric until, what, a18 or so with the first stages and a19/20 to where it became the way to get things? Once upon a time, devoting yourself to crafting even meant you could - GASP! - craft level 6 equipment for yourself!

I remember a time where one could build a tower - out of WOOD - just the four legs up to a platform with some railings so you wouldn't fall off, a ladder up the middle, and surround the thing with a moat filled with wooden spikes. You could do that and survive horde night after horde night. Not so anymore. You might not even survive the FIRST horde night in that, and certainly no later ones.

The game has changed out from under me, and not for the better.

I don't mind that there are other options for people that enjoy the tower defense and looter-shooter aspects of the game. I enjoy games like Remnant: From the Ashes from time to time myself. The problem is a game has to really be built for that - Remnant's combat is a LOT smoother and more enjoyable than 7 Days', for example (we don't even get a dodge roll here!) - and that's fine. But if this game had been that when I started, I probably wouldn't have bought into it in the first place because I only like games like that in small doses, and they need to be REALLY good at it to make me want it in the first place at all.

What I loved about early 7 Days was being able to go to the farm in Nav with some friends, harvest crops and build a base in the basement, and occasionally wonder into Diresville to explore and raid some houses. There was something neat about the way the game worked back then - back when the high school was in the prarie biome, my favorite biome to date and the only one I'm aware of THAT WAS REMOVED (I really wish we still had it, it's still my favorite of all the biomes and there's zero reason not to have it, imo) - that was just enjoyable to play.

When they added Traders, it made the world feel less empty, which was cool, and gave you some different options for progression, which was cool.

When they added Trader quests, it again gave different options, which was cool.

...but after that, they started taking things AWAY. Things I enjoyed.

That wasn't cool, and has been progressively less cool as they've dug their heels in and insisted they were going to keep doing more and more of it, stripping away the things I and my friends enjoyed about the game. It's like watching a slow death in the family or something, one that's taken far longer than 7 days.

At this point, I wouldn't recommend the game to others, which is a stark contrast from a few years ago when I was doing so.
 

Really think about it though. There needs to be a cost. 

...

It generates a balance in gameplay mechanics. There needs to be some risk for setting up a field of workstations.

That's the thing, though, it's NOT a regular crafting station. It's a passive resource generator, and a SLOW one at that. Does growing a single corn in a single farm plot attract Screamers? It's a substitute for THEM REMOVING your ability to gather water YOURSELF. When you filled a jar with water from a lake, did that generate heat? No, no it did not. Or did so negligibly that no one cared or would have noticed in a million years.

As THAT is what the Dew Collectors have replaced, they should generate no more heat than if you walked to a pond and filled a single jar with water every 8 in-game hours. And obviously, we all know that was little to none. The Dew Collector should generate AT MOST no more than that.

It's not a workstation in the normal sense of the term. You can't use it to craft anything or to refine anything. It's like an extremely slow, very limited vending machine.

.

EDIT:

There is a difference between cost to acquire, and cost to maintain/use.

If there's going to be such a high cost to maintain/use, the cost to acquire should be dropped to the ground.

Once full they no longer generate heat.

I have to ask, HOW is this a rebuttal?

Why do you build Dew Collectors? Because you need a source of water, right?

So how is "Just let it fill up and don't empty it" an answer? That'd be like building a storage box and never putting anything it it - if boxes generated heat when they held items - or building a bedroll but not placing it.

The entire point of having a Dew Collector is for it to generate water. If you aren't needing to empty it, then you don't need the water and you don't need the Dew Collector in the first place. How is this a rational rebuttal to literally anyone? It completely ignores the problems:
 

1) It's illogical for a plastic tarp to generate heat collecting dew while rain or GRASS doesn't attract Screamers/zombies.

2) It seems to be a nerf specifically designed to force people away from building bases and into doing quests/etc since they can't get water otherwise and the one non-loot/quest way of getting water now draws the zombies to you instead - and worse zombies.

This makes no sense, and that "rebuttal" is empty sophistry.

 

[Renathras]

Guess it's a playstyle diff, but the backlash seems extreme to me for what seems like a reasonable balancing change. Dew collector generates free water, so of course it needs some offset to make it a survival game, and no the cost to buy a filter doesn't matter when you get one for free and dukes are more plentiful than stones on the ground

Consider whatever your playstyle is. Now assume they make it next to impossible to do it. Like maybe you hate crafting and like questing. Suppose they make it where you can only get quality 5 and 6 stuff from crafting. And maybe you like killing zombies. So they put a debuff on you that makes it where when you kill a zombie, you can't craft items for 24 hours.

This would force you to disengage from your preferred content - questing and killing zombies - to sit around for 24 hours hours and THEN start the crafting marathon, which you also don't like.

You'd be asking "Why did they make this change?" and "What was wrong with the before?"

Suppose you find some kind of trick, like using robots and turrets and traps doesn't trigger that debuff. So you engage in this workaround of fighting zombies with spike traps and robotic sledges. You're now able to quest and kill zombies again and still able to do the "busywork" crafting along side it. It's not perfect, but you accept this as a workaround you're content with.

...so then they nerf that; now all those traps and robotic things also generate the debuff on you when a zombie is damaged or killed by them. So you're back to square one suffering from a mechanic that didn't even need to be changed/implemented in the first place and it seems like the devs are out to get you - personally, you - and people who enjoy the things you do and don't enjoy the pacifist crafting game they're trying to turn the game into.

.

Your reaction would probably be "extreme" as well.

.

It's not just "the dew collector generates heat".

It's "Glass jars have been removed. You now have to quest/raid to get Dukes to buy a filter AND get skill books (since you can't Learn by Doing or Learn by Perk anymore) to learn the Dew Collector, even if you don't particularly like questing or raiding and have managed for 10 years of playing the game to engage with the content without needing to do any more than you personally enjoy. Then you have to build said Dew Collectors and place them somewhere either outside or in a wide open area with a tall ceiling. Oh, and they ALSO summon Screamers since they now generate heat."

You're thinking t he reaction is to that last part after the "ALSO".

It's not.

The reaction is to that ENTIRE THING.

 

[bdubyah]

Wow, this is still going? People really will complain about anything. As mentioned before, all workstation type things are supposed to generate activity. It was absent on the dew collector altogether, and apparently bugged on the other stations. They fixed/normalized this. Stop crying about it. A dew collector causes a third of the activity as a forge or workbench. It ain't that bad. The sky looks nice and secure up there from where I'm standing...