RipClaw
Well-known member
Well, on the start screen it says "The Survival Horde Crafting Game" and not "The Survival Horde Looting Game".
So crafting should play a more important role than just a little side job.
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PC What was the point of the water change?
- Thread starter GlassDeviant
- Start date
So crafting should play a more important role than just a little side job.
Balthazod
New member
The water changes so confuse me we now have fluid water a big change and selling point in A21 but now we don't use it for anything. The whole water changes are pointless like the farming changes in A20 its just a tedious task we now have to perform. I have a level 30 avatar and in my storage I have 100 spare water and cooked food for weeks and ingredients for months I only have 3 dew collectors but I do have 100k in dukes so could build a dew farm of 50000 dew collectors, I would need a lot of storage. The change only really impacts the first couple of days that in my opinion where already tough enough.
As for crafting its the final nail in the coffin as the mags lag so far behind the game stage, I just looted a level 5 secure box and got you now craft a level 4 wooden club whoopee.
p.s I do not stop back to back trader missions no shortage of looting.
As for crafting its the final nail in the coffin as the mags lag so far behind the game stage, I just looted a level 5 secure box and got you now craft a level 4 wooden club whoopee.
p.s I do not stop back to back trader missions no shortage of looting.
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The intention expressed by the developers is that hunger and thirst should only be a problem in the first days. Would you like it if you still had to fight hunger and thirst on day 30? Play a 100% survival game if you want that
A new alpha always starts tough in my experience. I remember how A17 was so much harder initially. Then, after a few rounds of balancing it was back at the usual difficulty again where veterans were complaining it is too easy.
Yes, the nerf was too far. Next patch will surely be a boost again. PS: If it is too much for you, just play something else until the game is in a more balanced state.
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If that was true the devs wouldn't have taken out the jars and just added the purifier.
Roland
Moderator
What was eventual about the jars? You could have a stack of water on day one with jars that could be filled and then refilled forever just by a casual looting of several cupboards and toilets. Is that what “eventually” means to you?
Any system can be rushed by hyper-efficient players speed running through the game. So the time frame for “eventually” will vary from player to player but in all cases it was way way shorter of a progression when jars were in the game: nonexistent then compared to a variable time frame now depending on your efficiency.
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Roland
Moderator
Something else that needs to be understood is that the devs wanted empty jars gone. Regardless of whatever system of thirst survival they came up with, the removal of jars was a requirement and guaranteed to happen. They don’t want them and they’ve had a goal to remove them for quite some time.
Balthazod
New member
I have been playing the game for 6 years its its never been balanced its become more unbalanced with each Alpha the performance has improved the graphics have improved the game play has not thankfully the modders have saved it and I look forward to seeing how they redress the poor decision made by TFP.
AtomicUs5000
New member
When it comes to water in survival games, I prefer something where it is difficult in the beginning, but then over time along with my efforts, I eventually get to the state where it is no longer an issue. I do like to work for it though. Something in the lines of:
1) For some time, I have to collect water myself and purify it myself. It's fine for this to be terrible, annoying, and burdensome to the point where solving this problem is a necessity, if not for thirst then for glue.
2) I have collected the knowledge and the materials to build a water purifier. I can load several units of water into it at a time and I can collect purified water from it after it is done doing its thing. If some kind of balance is needed to prolong things, there can always be a small purifier, a medium purifier, a large purifier.
3) I have collected the knowledge and the materials to build dew/rain collectors. All I have to do now is collect from it. Again if some kind of balance is needed to prolong things, there can always be a small collector, a medium collector, a large collector.
We have the encumbrance system that dictates how many stacks we can comfortably carry of items, but we could also gain knowledge about how to properly stack items in our inventory. It could be applied to glass jars where at first you can only carry one in a stack, then you learn and it goes up to 4, 8, 16... or any set of numbers required for the balance.
1) For some time, I have to collect water myself and purify it myself. It's fine for this to be terrible, annoying, and burdensome to the point where solving this problem is a necessity, if not for thirst then for glue.
2) I have collected the knowledge and the materials to build a water purifier. I can load several units of water into it at a time and I can collect purified water from it after it is done doing its thing. If some kind of balance is needed to prolong things, there can always be a small purifier, a medium purifier, a large purifier.
3) I have collected the knowledge and the materials to build dew/rain collectors. All I have to do now is collect from it. Again if some kind of balance is needed to prolong things, there can always be a small collector, a medium collector, a large collector.
We have the encumbrance system that dictates how many stacks we can comfortably carry of items, but we could also gain knowledge about how to properly stack items in our inventory. It could be applied to glass jars where at first you can only carry one in a stack, then you learn and it goes up to 4, 8, 16... or any set of numbers required for the balance.
There is lots of stuff you can craft in the game and often the stuff you craft is important for your survival. But you are also very fast with crafting and you can do it on the side, so you can't really do that as a full time job unless you craft more than anyone can use.
As I don't see a line "The Survival Horde Crafting Full Time Job Game" up there that seems ok to me
Would you like 7d2d being a game with full time crafting? Where you need to click and move the mouse and do all sorts of tasks for 10 minutes to craft a single knife? THEN the crafter would have a more important role. The crafter we wouldn't have as nobody in our group would like to do such a job. While we're at it, lets make farming time-consuming as well, so we need a full-time crafter and a full-time farmer. Which we also wouldn't have ...
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Nope, it's learn-by-loot. But why can we have parallel learn-by-use? Personally I really like the new system of what can we craft progression, but why we progress both by looting and by crafting (even if learning by crafting/using would be slower)?
The problem is that crafting itself is being weirdly rebalanced to a point, that you could completely skip it. For me it's all about the immersion - there are many changes needed for the game (like those glass jars) that feel specifically unfair for someone, who mostly does crafting, but in reality it just makes game feel...weird. Like seriosuly, there's no way to bring extra water from the lake? Are people in zombie apocalypse that stupid? Even if not for purifying it, I would rather take some murky water with me in a piece of plastic as a last resort than run like a madman to the river each time I want to drink.
And don't get me wrong - in most cases I really like A21. And I agree that water rebalancing was needed. It was just overshot. Especially because we have pushed water gathering to water looting (murky water). Again that looting, why, why, why do we need to push everything there? I agree that it works at the beggining, but we need a proper early-mid or mid-late game replacement for that!
Dew collectors are okay'ish, but as mentioned in another thread, there should be a way to upgrade it. This way we'll be able to yield more water without making too many ingame objects/using up space.
Personally I would bring back glass jars or any other water container, but instead I would heavily impact the cost of water making:
- glass jars are not reusable or have limited usage counter
- you need a water filte (coal in early stage?)r in campfire to purity water
- you need a glass tools/blowpipe in forge to create glass jars/increase craft cost.
Based on above, we could make water filters have durability like car batteries and could remake them using coal. Maybe this way we could add more water filters to dew collector and increase water yield?
That's exacly why i bought the game in the first place
. And it makes me a bit sad, that mine main gameplay loop, that is in the subtitle of the game is being pushed to a sidejob.TL;DR
IMO overall changes in A21 for water might be something good, but are a bit overshot. It's all about finding a viable replacement for water production in early-mid to mid-late that doesn't rely solely on looting (immersion killer) or dew collector farms (looks bad, too many objects in game, takes up space).
PS.
If someone is not happy with saying, that looting is immersion killer in zombie apo game - I'm just referring to a fact, that I can magically find a full jar of water inside of the toilet bowl, but I'm unable to get water from the lake just outide with pretty much anything that could be water container. Looting is fine, it's immersion killer in the current water management crisis
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Please, please, please, don't treat everybody as a "vocal minority". In some cases this is just a call for game improvement/constructive criticism. I agree that water should be harder to gather, heck, as soon as I got the point of crafting duct tape I really liked the idea. Now this was challenge... until I realised, that it just kills of crafting branch, while you still get a lot of stuff from buying and looting. Either way, good idea, but the "vocal minority" just humbly asks for a better and fair implementation
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Lasher
New member
Please, please, please, don't treat everybody as a "vocal minority". In some cases this is just a call for game improvement/constructive criticism. I agree that water should be harder to gather, heck, as soon as I got the point of crafting duct tape I really liked the idea. Now this was challenge... until I realised, that it just kills of crafting branch, while you still get a lot of stuff from buying and looting. Either way, good idea, but the "vocal minority" just humbly asks for a better and fair implementation
This.
Unfortunately "Vocal minority" gets used a lot on these forrums - it's code for "I want to ignore anyone's opinion that doesn't align with my own" or possibly "How dare you disagree with TFP - Blaphemy!"
Yes, because everyone who tries to generate drama quotes that one post of Madmole. No one else has said it.
I and my group are now 60 days in. Water is no longer a problem (20 dew collectors at our main base). Collecting is tedious, but with the volume we get, it's not a big deal if we miss a day.
In the early game, however, the frustration of seeing ponds, but not being able to drink (the prompt to drink from standing water frequently did not show up), craft, or cook, was immense.
If the goal to make water a challenge in the early game, TFP have succeeded. However, there's not really any progression from there, just more of the same. It's stagnant and not fun.
We can make cars and helicopters, but we can't use a bucket to carry water to the campfire?
In the early game, however, the frustration of seeing ponds, but not being able to drink (the prompt to drink from standing water frequently did not show up), craft, or cook, was immense.
If the goal to make water a challenge in the early game, TFP have succeeded. However, there's not really any progression from there, just more of the same. It's stagnant and not fun.
We can make cars and helicopters, but we can't use a bucket to carry water to the campfire?
Aldranon
New member
I am not 100% satisfied with the current water system.
The difference for me compared to others that just complain is I change some things and see if I like things more or less.
1) Adding more skill points at the start let me progress faster through the POI-Trader chain and find more water or money to buy water.
The downside is it might damage mid/late game enjoyment by making things too easy.
2) Heading to the desert is probably the best once you can make first aid bandages (your almost unkillable), if you find a water source. Just save vitamins and/or goldenrod tea.
Drink your fill of dirt water and top off your health when it gets low with the first aid bandages which you should eventually have stacks of.
3) A more indirect approach is to make a map that is conducive to many large towns (No hills or mountains and nothing but "Many" set to towns everything else "None").
This should ensure that abundant sources of loot can be found.
The difference for me compared to others that just complain is I change some things and see if I like things more or less.
1) Adding more skill points at the start let me progress faster through the POI-Trader chain and find more water or money to buy water.
The downside is it might damage mid/late game enjoyment by making things too easy.
2) Heading to the desert is probably the best once you can make first aid bandages (your almost unkillable), if you find a water source. Just save vitamins and/or goldenrod tea.
Drink your fill of dirt water and top off your health when it gets low with the first aid bandages which you should eventually have stacks of.
3) A more indirect approach is to make a map that is conducive to many large towns (No hills or mountains and nothing but "Many" set to towns everything else "None").
This should ensure that abundant sources of loot can be found.
If you refer to the fact that you need xp for progressing in perks then you are forgetting that it would have to be called learn-by-loot-shoot-craft-harvest-blockupgrade. Factually that makes all worthwile activities xp generators and the way of progression is still perks.
Yes, even crafting in workstation gives small but diminishing returns again and it may have been this way even in previous alphas. It never will be used as major xp source though because TFP saw how bad it was for the game with people crafting stone axes through the night. Even many proponents of learn-by-doing do not want this back.
If on the other hand you just wanted to express your feeling that the game puts too much emphasis on the trader-loot-loop I even agree with you in parts but I don't want to muddy the issues.
Crafting progression by the way has principally not even changed from before since finding recipes or finding magazines is all learn-by-loot. The only principal difference now is that the fast track of getting recipes by perks has vanished.
TFP at the moment is rebalancing in an experimental inside an alpha version. In Version B313 it seemed that looting did not matter, I could craft a q5 tier1 turret while I did loot nothing above q3 tier0 stone stuff. In B317 now crafting may be the loser again. Is it weird? I don't know, I would say from previous alphas that is the normal effect of how TFP does its balancing.
How immersive was it that you could loot gas and gas cans would materialize without fail? I tell you, it was totally immersive because you were used to it. Did you every complain about it? In all my years here on the forum I have not seen a single post complaining that gas cans materializing when you need them was an immersion problem. Everyone accepted that you just had containers when you need them and that they were simply not represented in the game.
So, my advice, don't think about it, in 2 weeks you will be used to it and it becomes natural, just like using an acid bottle and not getting an empty bottle back. Just like eating a meat stew and not getting any container back.
The only real immersion issue is that you can't really get water from lakes. But even to this you will get used to, just like you got used to that you never need to really use the toilet. Or that you can't brew coffee in coffee machines, that lamps still work but refrigerators not. That you can built a working intelligent drone but install no weapons, that you can built a 4x4 but not add a machine gun on top. That you can't simply glue your weapon flashlight mod to your helmet. All of this could be immersion breaking if you let it.
Space is irrelevant. I am happy that I have new necessary objects I need to place somewhere in my base because I build for function. If you build for beauty just put them outside on a field and they won't impede you in your artistic expression.
But I agree that a dew collector upgrade would be very nice. Though I also would predict that in mid or late game a single player will check the collectors only when he needs water and that will be twice a week at most if he isn't into explosive arrow production.
And I also agree that the trader-quest-loop is overdone. My solution is reduction of the trader rewards. But I don't expect any changes in that regard in the next few patches. That is a longterm goal.
Just stop there. Lots of people come here and post their prefered scheme. But first of all it IS premature, we are in the second week of experimental. TFP will first try to make the current scheme work and only if it fails horribly will think about a replacement months from now.
Secondly lots of people don't even spend a few minutes getting the kinks out of their schemes and post broken ideas. Even if you DID think about carefully about it for a while your scheme will get lost in all the other broken schemes posted.
And there is more: TFP said that **one** of several objectives was to get glass jars in line with other containers in the game, i.e. like any other container they should simply not be in the game. IF you propose any scheme that brings back glass jar now, you will be ignored. Vanishing glass jars is not just a result of the redesign, it is one of the reasons for the redesign.
- glass jars are not reusable or have limited usage counter
- you need a water filte (coal in early stage?)r in campfire to purity water
- you need a glass tools/blowpipe in forge to create glass jars/increase craft cost.
Based on above, we could make water filters have durability like car batteries and could remake them using coal. Maybe this way we could add more water filters to dew collector and increase water yield?
That's exacly why i bought the game in the first place
TL;DR
IMO overall changes in A21 for water might be something good, but are a bit overshot. It's all about finding a viable replacement for water production in early-mid to mid-late that doesn't rely solely on looting (immersion killer) or dew collector farms (looks bad, too many objects in game, takes up space).
PS.
If someone is not happy with saying, that looting is immersion killer in zombie apo game - I'm just referring to a fact, that I can magically find a full jar of water inside of the toilet bowl, but I'm unable to get water from the lake just outide with pretty much anything that could be water container. Looting is fine, it's immersion killer in the current water management crisis
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RipClaw
Well-known member
Then I misunderstood. I thought you meant in terms of importance and not in terms of the time required.
Actually, I would like to see a crafting system similar to Undead Legacy with intermediate products, dependencies between workstations and the possibility to upgrade weapons and tools.Would you like 7d2d being a game with full time crafting? Where you need to click and move the mouse and do all sorts of tasks for 10 minutes to craft a single knife? THEN the crafter would have a more important role. The crafter we wouldn't have as nobody in our group would like to do such a job. While we're at it, lets make farming time-consuming as well, so we need a full-time crafter and a full-time farmer. Which we also wouldn't have ...
RipClaw
Well-known member
In a mod. It's kind of like seeing it in another game. I just think the fun pimps have overdone it with the streamlining and they could make the crafting more interesting.
Something like that. Any system that would allow you to progress the crafting skills not only via looting-rewards-trader would be a nice addition.
My bad. I wanted to propose a way to gather murky water in some other fashion than by looting, while increasing the cost of getting water that is usable in craft or for thirst.
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