PC Goodbye Immersion, Hello Anti-Stealth

[Mantel]

Other than that, what would be a good indicator of a false wall?

The usage of fake walls would for excample leave marks on the corners. Maybe the paint is a bit off or you see very small gaps on the edges. I mean, if you would use a fake wall in real life (a movable that is, if we accept the thinking that they were alive while crafting them, they need to think about food and water, thus cant stay there forever), if people look close enough, they would see it because there are gaps.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I think it wouldn't be very immersive if you always had a guaranteed chance to 100% stealth every room in every POI no matter what the conditions just because you maxxed out your perks. Take that room in your example. You are walking out in the open and everything is well lit and even your stealth meter says that you are perceptible to zombies out to 13 blocks away. If that zombie woke up suddenly-- even if it wasn't because of you but just woke up on its own you would be plainly visible and in it's line of sight with the amount of light and obvious lack of cover or shadows in the room. To stay invisible under those conditions seems un-immersive to me.

Immersion should never impact gameplay negatively. And building your character to do one thing and that thing failing 50% of the time... feels really REALLY BAD.
But we had this discussion before... so let me just
@Mantel sorry bro... they won't fix this. They think it is totally fine for one of the 6 fightingstyles to not work 50% of the time.
You are pretty new on this forum, so let me tell you:

TFPs will do ANYTHING to force confrontation. Some of the changes have been reasonable (like fixing exploit bases).
But most of them take away from how ppl want to play (you can still play without bloon moon, just disable it.) in favor of fake action.
 

Spoiler

A few examples over the years:
fake walls. As you correctly described, there is no reason for 50% of the current fake walls and roofs to exist. Cupboards are fine. Secret rooms are fine. Hell even upstairs falling down are fine (since they might have hidden there) EVEN WALLS UNDER GROUND are fine, since oyu can argue they buried their way there (a big stretch but whatever)... BUT: streamers can scream... and pewdiepie did it, so everyone does it... and that gives numbers. :triumphant:
Everything being lootbased. This might actually change next alpha, so take with a grain of salt, but the past 4 alphas have all piece by piece taken away the ability to just play in the wilderness by yourself.
All possibility for efficient* bases are pretty much removed. There is no unbreakable trap besides dartshooter, so you better use that one...
And demolishers just blow up everything anyways (that guy is probably the most unbalanced enemy in gaming history xD)

*efficient =/= exploit
Every base has a cost/effectiveness gradient. Less work => less result more work => better result
And spikepits were A LOT of work and after some fixes didnt instakill, but because of spikes they died... you still had to repair the structure... but it worked great.
Nowadays spikepits are a lot of work with barely any result...

So... don't hold your breath on stealth getting fixed. They are determined to keep this 'wake up based on chance' system. They might tweak it a bit so its not AS bad anymore... but it will always be flawed, because in these rooms, zombieawareness acts differently to any other zombie (which breaks continuity... and is a big no-no in gamedesign).

If they at least explained in detail how this system works... how to avoid it... that would mean we could counteract it... (remember how trash was introduced? THAT was a great anti-stealth mechanic. It was just intuitive enough that you understood what you did wrong and just hard enough that you could still avoid it if you were careful but now it is just rolling dice and you have to deal with the consequences...)

 

[zztong]

The usage of fake walls would for excample leave marks on the corners. Maybe the paint is a bit off or you see very small gaps on the edges. I mean, if you would use a fake wall in real life (a movable that is, if we accept the thinking that they were alive while crafting them, they need to think about food and water, thus cant stay there forever), if people look close enough, they would see it because there are gaps.

Hmm, we don't have a way with textures to put such marks in place. We would need a custom block.

 

[Mantel]

Hmm, we don't have a way with textures to put such marks in place. We would need a custom block.

There are custom Blocks where you hide loot behind like the quest crate. It wouldnt even be much work, just decrease the block size by 0,5% of the fake wall and thats it. But making it completely invisible feels a bit off. 

 

[BFT2020]

Here we go again  

TFP is taking away people's ability to play the game they want to

Stealth is broken

Nobody is explaining how the system works

Except it has been discussed many many times and a simple search pop up these three fairly easy





Also this one was a very good discussion on stealth








If you pay attention and take note of how the system works, you can find stealth builds very powerful and fun to play, and a lot less Skyrim type where stealth was just way overpowered and ridiculous

 

[Roland]

And building your character to do one thing and that thing failing 50% of the time... feels really REALLY BAD.

You do realize that when you blatantly exaggerate like this it doesn't strengthen your point like you think it does. It just wrecks your credibility. I successfully stealth at least 80% of the time that I'm trying and that is before I am even perked into any of the stealth related perks. I agree that the placement of sleepers in walls, rafters, and closets is  contrived for the purpose of creating jump scares and can understand how that fact might destroy the immersion of some folks who are sensitive to such silliness. But I have successfully shot zombies out of rafters, and closets without them waking up. I have snuck around furniture to get a sleepers that were placed so they could not be seen from the doorway. My stealth experience has been greater than 50% failure even before I spent a single point to enhance it. Much greater.

 

[Urban Blackbear]

I can still stealth through POIs in broad daylight, but it's not guaranteed like it used to be when perked in AGI. The new system just makes to glaringly obvious when I fail and cross a threshold that wakes all of the zombies in the volume up. That leaves you the option of standing and fighting or retreating until things calm down. Usually its just fight since they beeline for you. I can see how that would leave some players wondering why bother with stealth. It's very POI dependent.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

@BFT2020 almost as if people from all around somehow feel the same... must be coinkidink.
Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.
I do not care if my class makes me useless on hordenight. I will have to find another way to deal with that.
I don't care if my loot isn't as great. I don't care that I can't farm ressources, get good prices and items at the trader or have any way of dealing with larger groups of zombies... but if the ONLY THING that I can do still doesn't work... the class is fundamentally broken.
If you like to sneak until you get spotted and then start hopping around... great I am happy for oyu. I can simply tell you that going in a poi with only a knife and crossbow will either get you killed (depending on difficulty/POI and Gamestage) or will take so much longer than just shooting your way through because oyu have to run and hide half the time, that it is simply not worth it.

@Roland en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
 

In poetry and oratory, it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions.

And what else do you think I want to convey, when my favourite way to play is simply not possible anymore.

 

[Urban Blackbear]

To be fair, if you go into a POI with only a crossbow and a knife that's on the player. SMGs are right there in the AGI tree. If you can't stealth it then its time for some rock n roll. You kind of need that for some of the loot rooms anyway. I think the loot room in the video store/police station POI is a good example of zombies raining down in a confined space.

 

[Gamida]

...and even your stealth meter says that you are perceptible to zombies out to 13 blocks away.

I will need someone to explain this because I am 100% sure someone in the know has told us in the past that the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance that we are detectable but more of a general gauge of their senses.

 

[theFlu]

the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance

The meter doesn't give you comparable result even between skill points.. "10" at 0/5 is different from "10" at 5/5. And no, it doesn't translate to anything practical either.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

To be fair, if you go into a POI with only a crossbow and a knife that's on the player. SMGs are right there in the AGI tree. If you can't stealth it then its time for some rock n roll. You kind of need that for some of the loot rooms anyway. I think the loot room in the video store/police station POI is a good example of zombies raining down in a confined space.

Well I was able to do it before... use silent weapons (that scale with sneak) and go slowly and get results. It was very strong, yes. But it also had drawbacks.
Now, the only benefit of sneaking is outside at night. At least there it works as intended.

 

[BFT2020]

@BFT2020 almost as if people from all around somehow feel the same... must be coinkidink.
Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.
I do not care if my class makes me useless on hordenight. I will have to find another way to deal with that.
I don't care if my loot isn't as great. I don't care that I can't farm ressources, get good prices and items at the trader or have any way of dealing with larger groups of zombies... but if the ONLY THING that I can do still doesn't work... the class is fundamentally broken.
If you like to sneak until you get spotted and then start hopping around... great I am happy for oyu. I can simply tell you that going in a poi with only a knife and crossbow will either get you killed (depending on difficulty/POI and Gamestage) or will take so much longer than just shooting your way through because oyu have to run and hide half the time, that it is simply not worth it.

The fallacy of this statement "the class is fundamentally broken" is based on your perception of what stealth should be.  As we have learned playing many different types of stealth games over the years, stealth can be handle many different ways (from Hitman to Dishonored to many others). 

If you walked into a POI and every sleeper instantly woke up and targeted you no matter what you do, then yes the stealth in this game is fundamentally broken.  However, the developers have gone the route they did where if you spec into Hidden Strike and From the Shadows (and kit your gear correctly) then you will clear out a significant majority  of the zombies without them knowing you are there.  For all of the zombies that are awaken though, the game has the mechanic where you can strategically go backwards, hide from them, and then re-engage them later and get the Hidden strike bonus.

Any true stealth player doesn't go into the higher level POIs without a silenced pistol or SMG.  It's even advisable to have a larger weapon (shotgun for example) if all hell breaks loose and you are getting overwhelmed.

Based on your comment, you don't want to have to retreat.  That is your choice.  But when you disregard one of the benefits From the Shadows gives you, that doesn't make stealth fundamentally broken.  That is a choice that you made that doesn't take advantage of all of that perk's benefits.  That is like only eating boiled meat the entire game and then stating the food regeneration system is broken because you are only get 10 food for each item consumed when you have a total of 200 food.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

The fallacy of this statement "the class is fundamentally broken" is based on your perception of what stealth should be.  As we have learned playing many different types of stealth games over the years, stealth can be handle many different ways (from Hitman to Dishonored to many others). 

If you walked into a POI and every sleeper instantly woke up and targeted you no matter what you do, then yes the stealth in this game is fundamentally broken.  However, the developers have gone the route they did where if you spec into Hidden Strike and From the Shadows (and kit your gear correctly) then you will clear out a significant majority  of the zombies without them knowing you are there.  For all of the zombies that are awaken though, the game has the mechanic where you can strategically go backwards, hide from them, and then re-engage them later and get the Hidden strike bonus.

Any true stealth player doesn't go into the higher level POIs without a silenced pistol or SMG.  It's even advisable to have a larger weapon (shotgun for example) if all hell breaks loose and you are getting overwhelmed.

Based on your comment, you don't want to have to retreat.  That is your choice.  But when you disregard one of the benefits From the Shadows gives you, that doesn't make stealth fundamentally broken.  That is a choice that you made that doesn't take advantage of all of that perk's benefits.  That is like only eating boiled meat the entire game and then stating the food regeneration system is broken because you are only get 10 food for each item consumed when you have a total of 200 food.

You are right that I have a certain expectation of stealth (not a fallacy tho ).
But it is based upon a simple concept:
stealth is all about control (funny, because its in the AGI tree )
I control when I start the fight (if I dont mess up). I am the person that has to decide if its too risky or if I can do it.
This control is yanked away, as soon as it is a roll that every zombie gets upon entering.

Compare the two "types" of Z' state:

normal in the wild ("awake"): it is ONLY triggered by noise/sight. If I am careful enough, I can stand right behind the Z' and it will not spot me, granting me the chance to do a stealthkill.

in a POI this is not the case. I can do everything right. No armor, no light, no trash on the floor no meat stew in my pocket (oh wait )...
and yet the game forced this fight upon me.

In A16 (I don't know when this change occured) if I did everything perfectly, sneak would get me through every POI.
I still had to fight once in a while, because no human is perfect. And with a bit of tweaking, this system worked perfectly.
Now, it doesnt matter what I do... because the decider is still the game rolling dice based upon stats.

And I disagree: if I am confident in my ability, I don't take anything with me in hitman.
There is no reason why I shouldnt just specialize in a perktree that is actually useful, instead of having a half-working perk that does nothing except this (hyperbole again!)

I would love for TFPs to measure stats by percentage:
Tree most skilled in: (I think Fort >50% then STR and then all the others)
So we have:

STR: direct confrontation
FOR: direct confrontation
PER: shooting from afar or blowing stuff up
AGI (based on your playstyle): sneak until seen, then direct confrontation (but more evasive)

INT is the only path that needs actual setup. Place turrets, wake a few up, get the stunbaton...
Why does every Path lead to direct confrontation? I don't want to fight Z's. I have bloodmoon for that.
I want to be a survivalist and not fight unless I have to or use stealth going one by one...

but now even stealth leads to confrontation... almost as if there is a designdecision behind that that would explain these changes...
 

 

[Roland]

I will need someone to explain this because I am 100% sure someone in the know has told us in the past that the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance that we are detectable but more of a general gauge of their senses.

Huh...If that's true then I've misinterpreted it all this time. I could swear that faatal referenced the number in terms of block distance but I definitely could be wrong.

 

[Roland]

Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.

Not 100%, no. But that is you putting a limit on what is or is not included in stealth gameplay. I've played plenty of stealth games where you often have to hide until the heat dies down and enemies go back to regular patrol mode. If your standard for "working stealth" is that you will be able to kill 100% of sleepers without them ever waking up, falling out of a ceiling or out of a wall then you are 100% correct that TFP isn't going to fix something that isn't actually broken and you are just ranting for the sake of oratory or poetry, I suppose...

@Roland en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
 

In poetry and oratory, it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions.

And what else do you think I want to convey, when my favourite way to play is simply not possible anymore.

Good to know you just consider your own posts as rhetorical orations and poetry. I think everyone else does as well....

As I said, if you want to be taken seriously in a conversation regarding the actual design of the game then stick to the facts as best you can estimate them if you don't actually know them. I admit that I don't know the exact percent but I know that I can stealth most of the time and the times that stealth check fails I can choose to fight head on and loudly or retreat, hide, and return in continued stealthy fashion. If you don't feel the perks are worth the points then don't purchase them. Plenty of people feel they are worth it at the current ratio of success to failure and TFP doesn't need to fix anything that isn't actually broken. If something isn't working as intended that needs to be fixed but the exact ratio of how often stealth should succeed vs fail when you are fully perked is pure opinion and not something that is necessarily broken.

BTW, if the ratio actually was 50/50 then I would agree that it should be changed. So really, that is all we are really talking about here. What should the ratio be. 100/0? 90/10? 85/15?  What is acceptable and what is intended by the developers?

 

[Roland]

Now, it doesnt matter what I do... because the decider is still the game rolling dice based upon stats.

But this is actually ambiguous because there are so many things we don't know about how you are playing. You say you make zero mistakes but we have gone through so many of these threads where someone claimed a room was auto-aggro ambush but then it was proven that it was not after all. So it does matter what you do however...yes...there is a die roll and so it is not entirely skill-based and you can end up rolling a 1 which is an automatic critical failure in many RPGs. In addition, this is a survival game which means that bad events beyond your control can happen and you as the player must use your skills and ability to adapt to survive the unlucky event.

but now even stealth leads to confrontation...

But only sometimes. You can't seriously define the agility branch as a whole leading to confrontation unless you're just waxing poetic again. It has the best chance and you have the skills to evade and still kill without confrontation if you're willing to take the time to do so. If you aren't willing to take the time then maybe you are more interested in min/maxing then you are in stealth. I mean....what is the penalty for finishing a POI more slowly? What does it really matter? If a room wakes up and you don't want to retreat and wait and then return and stealth kill because you just want to be done with this POI and move on to the next thing, then

that doesn't really sound like you enjoy the playstyle.

almost as if there is a designdecision behind that that would explain these changes...

Hence why there is nothing needing to be fixed...

 

[zztong]

There are custom Blocks where you hide loot behind like the quest crate. It wouldnt even be much work, just decrease the block size by 0,5% of the fake wall and thats it. But making it completely invisible feels a bit off. 

I can look into that. You're right that I might have a variety of options with combining the various bent-up shapes with the configuration of an easily broken block.

 

[AH64_Jimbo]

I've got to throw in my two cents, because I completely agree with Roland; Stealth is not a 100% guarantee. I often make an Agility build, yet I know that I cannot stay hidden forever.

Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.

Not 100%, no. But that is you putting a limit on what is or is not included in stealth gameplay. I've played plenty of stealth games where you often have to hide until the heat dies down and enemies go back to regular patrol mode. If your standard for "working stealth" is that you will be able to kill 100% of sleepers without them ever waking up, falling out of a ceiling or out of a wall then you are 100% correct that TFP isn't going to fix something that isn't actually broken and you are just ranting for the sake of oratory or poetry, I suppose...

but now even stealth leads to confrontation...

But only sometimes. You can't seriously define the agility branch as a whole leading to confrontation unless you're just waxing poetic again. It has the best chance and you have the skills to evade and still kill without confrontation if you're willing to take the time to do so. If you aren't willing to take the time then maybe you are more interested in min/maxing then you are in stealth. I mean....what is the penalty for finishing a POI more slowly? What does it really matter? If a room wakes up and you don't want to retreat and wait and then return and stealth kill because you just want to be done with this POI and move on to the next thing, then

that doesn't really sound like you enjoy the playstyle.

It's all part skill, part luck, part character build and even part level design. Sometimes you just can't sneak. Factory_03 (Pop-N-Pills factory) is a good example; It is almost impossible to stealth through the entire level as per design. That being said, I can lay ambushes for zombies. If you know the choke points of a POI, you can set up defenses, turrets, mines or whatever have you. Many times you can still get a sneak shot in, before the rest of the room attacks you. However you will be guns blazing and/or retreating and hiding until the heat dies down.

Also, I have used an aggroed zombie against them; A zombie around the corner might hear me breaking a wall or what have you, and shamble over to investigate. However, before they arrive I melt away into a dark corner and pounce when they find nothing there. This doesn't always work, as sometimes the zombie just happens to wander directly into me or I am not hidden enough. However, when it works it is highly satisfying and especially useful at night.

So you could complain about stealth being broken, or you could learn to use the existing game mechanics to your advantage. 

If you really want some aspect changed in the game, may I suggest that you use constructive criticism and bring an alternative idea to the table.

It's like Roland said . . .

Hence why there is nothing needing to be fixed...

 

[Aldranon]

Late game, my M-60 works 99% of the time and when it fails, I have less amazing automatic weapons as backups.

If it was a real situation, stealth is what I would probably be doing (if not running away!) in a nightmare situation like 7D2D.  But for gameplay, stealth currently feels unrealistic (unless I'm in a coma and will wake up in a Part 2) and as it's a solid enough FPS as well... I shoot.

I shoot on horde nights too, almost every zombie is killed by shooting.  I use ammo I don't use in the daytime which are shotgun and 44.