I thought you were continuing Old Crow's argument so I was responding to his and your post combined. If you don't think INT is inadequate, why do you think it needs to be bolstered. Isn't that double reward of Daring a cool thing?
PC Exquisite feedback from a charismatic player
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I thought you were continuing Old Crow's argument so I was responding to his and your post combined. If you don't think INT is inadequate, why do you think it needs to be bolstered. Isn't that double reward of Daring a cool thing?
Old Crow
Well-known member
Int is pretty good, though a third baton weapon would be nice, and some sort of proper firearm. I don't really get why There are only two baton types (pipe and stun). What ab out something inbetween, like a police baton? I'm also hoping the Stun Baton gets a damage boost in A21. I know the stun effect is supposed to make up for it, but it's not like it happens a lot, and a higher tier weapon should not be dealing less damage than a standard wooden club.
theFlu
Well-known member
The bookset allows making the stun a proper aoe crowd control, mildly random, but a permanent stun on a small number of targets. All the while you have two friendlies chewing up the stunned ones.
I'd say balance-wise INT is in a good spot as is, probably even on the strong side. So adding power to the batons would require reducing somewhere else.
Old Crow
Well-known member
Would it, though? I'm not saying make the damage output on-par with a steel sledge. But it really shouldn't be weaker than a primitive weapon.
theFlu
Well-known member
#define weaker. Not that many other things in game reliably shake three or more rads off of you.
The aoe effect is only achievable with the candy. One of the books allows you to recharge the baton faster and the other book gives a repulsor mod to throw zombies away. AFAIK fully perked you can keep one zombie in stun lock forever no matter how big it is.
I looked into the XMLs: T0 primitive wooden club and T0 primitive baton both have the same damage (13.8) ! Consequently T2 stun baton has LESS damage (10.8) than even its lower tier T0 baton!! This seems to indicate that the developers think that the stun ability is worth much more than the damage difference between those tier0 weapons (3).
When comparing it to the tier1 and tier3 clubs (19.2 and 26.2) we could assume that without the stun it would have a damage somewhere in the middle between those values (22.7). And that would mean the developers value the stun as effective as 9 damage.
Note I did not compare other attributes like stamina-loss, reach, ... but I don't think there is much difference in those values.
theFlu
Well-known member
You don't really need the aoe to gain decent control over several targets with it. Three is a lot to control without it, for sure, you'll need to kite effectively, but it's a whole lot easier than with the clubs.
I did some cursory testing of the difference earlier today, curiously my Q6 Baseball Bat did 67 damage on a power strike, and the Q6 Stun Baton did 66 when including the dot damage. I didn't check if the dot scales.
Either weapon, unskilled, against rad healing is just fishing for a decap anyway, which feels a lot smoother with the baton stuns.
Ahh, then I follow. No, I don't think INT needs to be bolstered. I do think it would be neat if INT (all the attributes really) had something to show off your superior intellect as a capstone, like the ability to see the HP bar of zombies, or a modifier for the night vision goggles to show "zombie heat" or something, just to indicate that you have Spock level intelligence. An ancillary bonus that signals your intellectual ascendance. I would also like if there was some interaction with other trees, but that's more a general idea than INT related, and would in many cases require that individual skills be toned down to compensate for increased power.
As for the other argument I think that was just a question of whether or not there would be improvements to the baton, which seems unlikely given the robotics tree screenshot.
Old Crow
Well-known member
BFT2020
Well-known member
My problem with the baton is even fully perked into it, it's mostly decap fishing against any serious enemy. And since it doesn't kill things quickly, it doesn't get the stamina restore from sex rex/flurry of blows, which means you end up running out of stamina. It's fine against a few enemies, but against 5+ rad bikers, I can kill them easily with the club, knife or spear, but I'll spend half an in-game day trying to kill them with the baton (or fists, but I'm probably biased against the fists because of the attack range.)
And yes, I know you're going to bring up the turrets again, but you don't always have a chance to set up turrets, they chew through ammo (and thus become useless) incredibly quickly, and I have enough stuff on my hotbar that I don't really have room for 2 turrets there all the time.
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theFlu
Well-known member
Well, my original point was only that there's No Point in comparing the damage of a baton to the damage of the clubs, they're completely different beasts.
Would I bring up turrets? Well, that's half the reason they're completely different.
Did a bit of testing, blurb:
As the target environment is "all of the rads" the game stage is "whatever spec and mods I want". No books thou, don't want to spoil my test character with those.
Q6 Turret
Rad remover, Barrel extender, Drum mag, Full Auto
=>
26.6 damage (with mods), 288 actual mag capacity
Rad Bikers, (AI off)
Rounds to kill:
Nomad difficulty
Normal ammo, open field
88, 75, 53, 68, 62
against a wall
56, 49, 57, 58, 56
AP ammo, open field
37, 44, 41, 49, 39
against a wall
39, 37, 37, 32, 39
Insane difficulty
AP ammo, against a wall:
87, 80, 72, 75, 80
Q6 Turret
Rad remover, Barrel extender, Drum mag, Full Auto
=>
26.6 damage (with mods), 288 actual mag capacity
Rad Bikers, (AI off)
Rounds to kill:
Nomad difficulty
Normal ammo, open field
88, 75, 53, 68, 62
against a wall
56, 49, 57, 58, 56
AP ammo, open field
37, 44, 41, 49, 39
against a wall
39, 37, 37, 32, 39
Insane difficulty
AP ammo, against a wall:
87, 80, 72, 75, 80
With AP ammo, nominal difficulty, 288 rounds from a single turret should take out 5-7 rads between reloads. For two right clicks, that's a hefty amount of damage.
Even the three on Insane isn't all that horrible.
The turrets aren't weak, while the batons are. INT just actually plays differently.
Oh, but it very much is. It destroys prepped fights, choke points etc, and the amount of "oh surprise, 5 rads" in the game is pretty minimal. It takes prep to excel, but most of the time you can just as well setup even after agroing something.
BFT2020
Well-known member
Not putting 2 turrets on your hotbar is not an issue with playing a pure Int build, that's a choice by the player not to utilize all the strengths of the Int only build. It's like a strength build maxing out boomstick, then just walking around all the time with pistols and rifles.
I have either 2 (for turret perk level 0 to 4) or 3 (for turret perk level 5) junk turrets on my hotbar. Two to deploy and one ready to go when 1 or 2 run out so I can deploy another one while reloading. That leaves me with 7 slots that typically filled with stun baton, knife, bow or crossbow, firearm, first aid, axe, and salvage tool. Other tools are usually just in my inventory to pull out when I need them. If I am at the stage of coming across radiated zombies, then I make sure one of the turrets have rad remover installed - the other one typically has cripple em mod installed.
I have never came across a situation where I could not setup turrets. Even if you are surprised, you can simply run away and deploy the turrets. As soon as the zombies cross in front of them, they will start shooting. And if you are playing Insane / Nightmare, again not an issue with the Int build, you just need to learn to always be ready to deploy turrets at a moment's notice as the game is not balanced towards those settings.
Old Crow
Well-known member
My hotbar always contains the same items, in pretty much every game I play that has similar items to 7 Days. Slot 1 pickaxe, slot 2 shovel, slot 3 axe, slot 4 melee weapon, slot 5 "Oh Sh!t" ranged weapon. For 7 Days specifically, slot 6 is a bow/crossbow, slot 7 is my "free slot", slot 8 is healing, slot 9 is blocks and slot 10 is my upgrade tool. I've played like this so long that it's ingrained, and having things arranged differently really messes with me.
So technically, yes, I could change my slot layout, but I'd be constantly hitting wrong buttons. No other tree needs the extra slots taken up on the hotbar (I suppose you could argue that I could put a turret in slot 5, but a turret really doesn't have the same uses as a shotgun or automatic weapon.) Perhaps I'm too much a creature of habit (that seems to happen as you get older) but it's like trying to play a game that uses non-standard keyboard or controller layouts, it's just uncomfortable and weird, and you end up hitting the wrong buttons and getting yourself in a bad situation or killed.
theFlu
Well-known member
Changing things is hard, but perfectly viable. Easier to do with changes that don't really mess up your game, as bad eventts take the motivation out quite quick.
For instance, for your setup, you have 4 tool slots. You won't have many, if any, moments in the game where you need a tool "right now". So while there's routine to swap to the tools, if you pull out a turret instead, it's not going to hurt you. A rocket launcher might, but you can wait until you've accustomed for those...
Condensing those 4 to one slot would free up 1,2,3. For swapping the tools, get into a routine of: swap into tool slot, open inventory, click on wanted tool, keypress "equip". This equips the tool into into the tool slot and swaps the old tool where the new one was. Keeps your tools "sorted" in the inventory while you earn three more instantly usable items.
Train the routine two dozen times specifically, and then a few repeats at the start of the next session, for a few sessions. Done.
I find it rather odd that anyone would state that INT is underpowered in any way. For me, INT is not just the most powerful tree, it is more powerful by a MASSIVE amount. Double turrets are, IMHO, the fastest means to clear any area. The Traps cover horde night though you can acess those other ways and the extras you get at the trader increases basically everything.
Dual turrets are by far the most powerful weapon you have available to you. They will clear the top floor of a T5 for you if you just run in a circle.
Dual turrets are by far the most powerful weapon you have available to you. They will clear the top floor of a T5 for you if you just run in a circle.