PC Will stealth finally be worth it in A21? Also all the anti-immersion/Skill system.

[Scyris]

I'm curious if anything is gonna be done so stealth is worth it in a21? in A20, most sleeper volumes in t3 and some t2 poi's are all ambushes the second you walk in the room, and the ones that area, the zombies are always magically behind a block so you cannot get a clear shot. Is this going to be fixed in A21 at all? As I am seeing less and less reason to bother with the stealth skills if everything is just gonna magically know exactly where I am when I walk into the room.

Now lets get on topic 2: how much Anti-immersion 7dtd has, Sorry but the zombies always behind perfectly behind blocks, or falling from the cieling/hidden wells is massivly immersion destroying. As it makes no sense, what were they doing there? It kinda goes with the comment about how useless stealth feels due to the fact the sleeper volumes in t3+ poi's mostly auto aggro and magically know your location the second you walk in, no matter how quiet you try to be.

Is Tfp trying to remove the stealth skill? if so, I'd rather they just do it instead of leaving it in and having people waste skill points on skills that aren't useful past the first few days.

I've been playing 7dtd since A9/10 and I still cannot see what direction the devs plan to go in, as each alpha seems to fly off in a diff direction. DO they even have a roadmap? if so, show us. As it seems each alpha is just the randomest stuff tossed together often with no rhyme or reason. Game dev 101: have a clear plan on paper before you start creating a game, and try to stick to it. Tfp has IMO failed on that aspect, I mean they redid the skill system what? 4-5 times now? When a16.4 would have been perfect for the game with just some tweaks. Like removing crafting quality from the action skill, and added to the +damage/reload speed/block dmg perks the action skills allowed you to learn. Level locked crafting skills would also work. Also, the stat system doesn't remove gates, it add's 4 new gates, I'd rather there just have been 1 level gate. Instead of 5 stats gating perks. They turned a single problem into 5 problems.

I've watched a old offical 7dtd features video from 8+ years ago, and half the features in that video still do not exist in the game today, where did they go? Here's a link to the video in question, the potions, food, story system, buff systems etc all mentioned pretty much do not exist.

I'll be honest I don't play vanilla 7dtd much these days as the game has just gone down the crapper so much lately, a17 really killed it for me, and its just getting worse with each new alpha in general. I usually play a bit of vanilla each new alpha then its usually waiting for mods to update, as the mods are the only thing that make the game any actual fun anymore. They add stuff the game is missing, like Tiers above steel, zombies above radiated, more indepth crafting etc.

I look at alot of the A21 stuff and just go... "Why?" like we don't need new models for cars we just wrench and destroy when the game is plagued with a ton of other art related problems that should be higher priority imo.

TLR I just wish TFP would finally pick something, stick with it, and build on it, instead of keep basically remaking half the game each alpha for no real reason. Gamefeels like its never going to go gold at this rate. Which the only reason I remotely care about gold is because of the promised optimizations, because lets be honest even with a 3080 7dtd runs like garbage. Mods don't help but even vanilla is iffy due to how unoptimized it is.

I care so much as 7dtd used to be my fave game, but the questionable choices by the devs have made me kinda... almost give up on it.

Also In before they take that video I linked down due to this post.

 

[Uncle Al]

Stealth is a lot more useful than you're giving it credit for already, but you have to know how to use it.

'Auto aggro' spawns have been removed.  The zombies can either notice you as they spawn, because your skills are too low or the light is too bright or both (light is really important now), or they don't.  Note that carrying an active light source means you will automatically fail stealth checks.

If they don't notice you they may be aggroed on your location but they're not locked on to you as a target. You can move quietly out the way, distract with rocks, and you still get a full stealth damage bonus even though they may be moving towards you.

Even if they do notice you on spawn, you can withdraw and rehide, which takes only 10 seconds at max stealth skill.

The old 'auto aggro' would effectively knock you out of stealth straight away in all cases, and that has gone.

Stealth still isn't great, just because in the face heavy weaponry often gets the job done faster, but the agility tree is awesome anyway so dropping a few points into stealth when you've already paid for the attribute itself to access other benefits is totally worth it.

 

[zztong]

Stealth is a lot more useful than you're giving it credit for already, but you have to know how to use it.

I agree. I use Stealth all the time and have no complaints. It comes with its share of challenges, which is what I think makes it fun, early game through late game. You have to be into careful movement, lighting, proximity, and then some creativity to make alternative paths.

To the OP's point, I can empathize with the feeling that ambushes are being built into POIs a bit more now than before. To me, this elevated the challenge, but didn't make stealth useless. Now I'm a bit more thoughtful about how I proceed through a POI. I'm quicker to abandon the "sucker's path" through a POI and get those zombie volumes to reveal themselves or to come at the zombies from angles that defeat their concealment.

Stealth is never 100% perfect, partly because of the unknown locations of zombies and partly because POIs can create lighting situations that you sometimes have little choice but to enter. Proper planning for a place to retreat always helps, and then there's the trusty AK on the toolbelt to fallback to.

 

[Laz Man]

Stealth is a lot more useful than you're giving it credit for already, but you have to know how to use it.

'Auto aggro' spawns have been removed.  The zombies can either notice you as they spawn, because your skills are too low or the light is too bright or both (light is really important now), or they don't.  Note that carrying an active light source means you will automatically fail stealth checks.

If they don't notice you they may be aggroed on your location but they're not locked on to you as a target. You can move quietly out the way, distract with rocks, and you still get a full stealth damage bonus even though they may be moving towards you.

Even if they do notice you on spawn, you can withdraw and rehide, which takes only 10 seconds at max stealth skill.

The old 'auto aggro' would effectively knock you out of stealth straight away in all cases, and that has gone.

Stealth still isn't great, just because in the face heavy weaponry often gets the job done faster, but the agility tree is awesome anyway so dropping a few points into stealth when you've already paid for the attribute itself to access other benefits is totally worth it.

This guy sums it up pretty well where stealth currently sits.

In my opinion, stealth gameplay is still very useful.  For me, stealth's greatess strength is that it allows players to conserve ammo and also reduces the threat level of some encounters. (E.g. reducing the number of zeds that need to be fought concurrently).

What stealth will not let you do is quietly stealth kill every encounter in the game.  There will always be some encounters that will start out a certain way, and the player will have to adapt and figure out how to overcome it (e.g. attack volumes).

As far as a roadmap is concerned, the missing big ticket items for gold have been mentioned several times in the dev diary. (E.g. water fix, bandits, story, art update to current HD / PBR standards etc.)

Also, there will certainly be balance changes along the way.  The upcoming "learn by looting" change hopefully will buff crafting back up since it has largely become an insignificant in comparison to looting/questing.

 

[Pernicious]

In my opinion, stealth gameplay is still very useful.  For me, stealth's greatess strength is that it allows players to conserve ammo and also reduces the threat level of some encounters. (E.g. reducing the number of zeds that need to be fought concurrently).

What stealth will not let you do is quietly stealth kill every encounter in the game. 

I was thinking just this, but taking it even further. Some people expect that the stealth system should be like Splinter Cell - every mission can be accomplished with no combat, and in fact some missions fail if combat occurs. 

I think it'a more like Deus Ex: Mankind divided. Most missions have a stealth option, but some simply do not. 

The difference is that 7D2D and Deus Ex let you skill into Stealth, letting players think along fixed class lines. But neither game promises you a stealth class, or a tank class, or a sniper class, etc. Both are fully flexible classless systems where  someone putting points into rifles can be either a stealth assassin, or a firearms specialist, or a hunter, and missions are not written to have a fully stealth based path. It's written so every combination of skills will have its advantages and drawbacks. 

The difference between working as intended and broken, is often just expectation.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I think it'a more like Deus Ex: Mankind divided. Most missions have a stealth option, but some simply do not.

I feel compelled to point out that that was considered a major failure of the game by some.  The original Deus Ex was able to be completed without killing anyone, and the fact that the 3rd (I think...it's been a while...and we don't talk about Deus Ex 2) game in the series didn't was somewhat disappointing.

 

[meganoth]

I feel compelled to point out that that was considered a major failure of the game by some.  The original Deus Ex was able to be completed without killing anyone, and the fact that the 3rd (I think...it's been a while...and we don't talk about Deus Ex 2) game in the series didn't was somewhat disappointing.

Critics of the current stealth system define a stealth failure when their stealth is broken in any situation. While TFP presumably defines a stealth failure if you die without a chance to restealth or otherwise cope with any situations the random world throws at you.

The difference is similar to the difference between chess and a typical war game. Both are highly tactical, but in chess everything is deterministic. In theory there is an optimal game and the outcome is only random because players make mistakes and do not follow the optimal path. But in a typical war game you can do everything right and still fail an attack. All you can do is maximize the probability of your success.

 

[ElCabong]

What they're trying to avoid is for stealth spec  to go in and kill everything in the poi without encountering any danger on your own. Once you get your stealth skill high enough, there are quite a few where this is possible. This gets fewer and fewer as you come into the newer dungeons.

I thoroughly detest the rooms where the zombies are invisible even, though you can look it over very well and see almost everything, until you walk in and then 15 or 20 warp out of hyperspace and attack.

The ones in the ceilings that you can't shoot through is another load of BS.

What you need to remember with stealth is once they focus on you and you run away far enough and wait long enough, they forget you and then you can go in and pick them off. How far away and how long you need to wait depends on your stealth skill, and perhaps how quiet your armor is but I always use padded so I don't know.

This also works against the developers because once you trigger them they are frequently bunched together and I've killed the entire attack party with one explosive crossbow bolt.

So is stealth useful yes it is. You need to use it right. Is it as good later on as it is starting out, well it doesn't feel that way.

 

[Javabean867]

Wait, why are people upset over zombies in the ceiling?  People hide when scared, the ceiling seems like a logical place to go.  If they were I felted prior to hiding(or died and zombified) then it makes sense that zombies would be in ceilings.

 

[ElCabong]

Wait, why are people upset over zombies in the ceiling?  People hide when scared, the ceiling seems like a logical place to go.  If they were I felted prior to hiding(or died and zombified) then it makes sense that zombies would be in ceilings.

It doesn't bother me that they're in the ceiling. I can't see them nor can I attack them unless I trigger them. If they're up there I should be able to shoot the floor out from underneath them. 

 

[Javabean867]

I mean there is nothing stopping you from shooting every ceiling section, but that seems like a waste of resources.

That being said, I think the stealth skill should give a radar for zambees in your immediate area, so its easier to find them when you didn't agro them.

 

[Roland]

I've watched a old offical 7dtd features video from 8+ years ago, and half the features in that video still do not exist in the game today, where did they go? Here's a link to the video in question, the potions, food, story system, buff systems etc all mentioned pretty much do not exist.

Claim #1: 7DTD is an open world voxel sandbox based game

This claim is 100% fulfilled. It is true that for a pure sandbox experience the player should enable the creative menu and liberally use Godmode but even without that there are many ways to play and have fun in the world.

Claim #2: 7DTD is a unique mix of 1st person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role playing games

This claim is 100% fulfilled. There is no other game on the market that fuses these genres in the way our game does which is why after 9 years in development it continues to grow in popularity. There are elements of all of these genres very much apparent in the game and they work well together to make something greater than the sum of its parts.

Claim #3: The game has multiple biomes and hundreds of POIs that are fully explorable including cities and skyscrapers

This is claim is 95% fulfilled. The number and method of spawning biomes has changed over development but there are still desert, snow, wasteland/burnt, forest/plains/mountains, and water with radiation zones still planned to come. For example there used to be a dedicated plains biome whereas now within the overall forest biome there are areas of flat plains and areas of mountainous terrain but these variations of landscape are still present and can be explored.

Claim #4: A story

This claim is 10% fulfilled. There are notes and decorations and POIs that tell stories and give clues about what happened but they are all separate and a complete story is not yet implemented. The beginnings of two factions that will help drive the story are currently in development and are the foundation for the story that will be a part of the game. The main focus points of the story have been revealed: Noah of the Whiteriver Clan and The Duke and his henchmen. I will note that in the original video the story of the game was simply going to be a sequence of linking notes that could be found and I believe the story structure we will end up getting will be more dynamic and robust than the simple one promised in the video.

Claim #5: You will need to survive by finding food and water and managing health, stamina, hunger, and hydration. You will be able to boost your stats through character development.

This claim is 100% fulfilled. Even the new dew collector and water survival rules show they are still committed to making the survival aspect of the game interesting and fun and not just a tedious job.

Claim #6: You can farm crops and hunt wild animals

This claim is 100% fulfilled. These activities also have supporting perks to go with them.

Claim #7: Day and night cycles that dramatically affect the strength and speed of the zombies

This claim is 100% fulfilled. Stronger feral zombies spawn at night and the zombies move faster at night than they do during the game. The bloodmoon has the biggest effect of all every 7 days.

Claim #8: You can build traps and defenses for your base

This claim is 100% fulfilled. Not much else to say about it.

Claim #9: You can loot, mine, and craft

This claim is 100% fulfilled. All three elements are part of the game. Granted the spatial crafting was replaced by list crafting but the essence of the promise is fully fulfilled. In A21 crafting is going to get a huge boost thanks to the new magazine system that separates it from the perk trees. The loot rebalance also means you will be crafting weapons and tools at least as often as finding them in loot.

Claim #10:  You'll be able to craft generators, machines, and vehicles

This claim is 100% fulfilled. With five craftable vehicles including one that grants flight, robotic drones and turrets, and electrical devices connected to generators the game delivered on this promise big time.

Claim #11: Enemies can sense you and are relentless in their pursuit of you

This claim is 100% fulfilled. I admit that some specific senses have been abstracted together into a general sense of the player rather than specific smelling of meat which is unfortunate in my opinion but the idea of having enemies that sense you and hear you and come to investigate noises they hear and once they see you they pursue you to kill you is all there.

Claim #12: There will be special enemies

This claim is 100% fulfilled. There are several special enemy types with specialized attacks beyond the basic zombie abilities.

Claim #13: Bandits and Boss Characters

This claim is 20% fulfilled. Bandits are being worked on presently and the Duke boss character as well as the Noah boss character have been discussed and elements of their presence in the game are already implemented. They plan to add both melee and ranged combat bandits and that there will be two factions for the player to manage as they strive to survive.

Claim #14: Structural integrity, gravity physics, and destructible structures will be part of the game

This claim is 100% fulfilled and has been for a long time...

Claim #15: As the player progresses they will be able to craft items with a higher quality level

This claim is 100% fulfilled.

Claim #16: Different food types will have different purity levels granting more or less health and other abilities to the player

This claim is 100% fulfilled

Claim #17: You can stealth past enemies and throw distractors to draw their attention elsewhere

This claim is 100% fulfilled. There is no claim that you will be 100% successful at it but there is a stealth component to the game and I agree with most responders on here that if you enjoy playing stealth then it is very much worth spending points to enhance your stealth skills. If you just care about the most efficient way to clear a building then stealth may not be for you. But that does not invalidate the fact that stealth is a part of the game.

Claim #18: You can craft various distractors and attractors to mess with the zombies

This claim is 0% fulfilled. Not certain if this has been abandoned or just an oversight.

Claim #19: You can gain XP and use it to purchase skills and perk upgrades in various ability trees

This claim is 100% fulfilled and closer to the original claim with the current system than it was with the LBD system in earlier versions.

Claim #20: You can even learn a special finishing move

This claim is probably 70% fulfilled as it morphed into power attacks for each of the weapons. Not everything always stays exactly the same as the original concept once development gets underway but there are power attacks for each weapon that often are finishing moves in melee combat. Depending on your expectations of this you will feel angry, ambivalent, or relieved.... <shrug>

Claim #21: Play solo, co-op, or MP in a special Nomad mode with leaderboards and where you can play as a zombie.

This claim is 66% fulfilled. Solo and co-op are in and many do play PVP MP using the base game but the dedicated MP PVP mode in which you can play as a zombie and where there will be leaderboards is not implemented yet. It is planned but may not make it in before full release.

Claim #22: Use creative tools for POI and world building

This claim is 100% fulfilled and the tools the devs are making available to players to create POI's in the editor and craft their own custom world maps is improving and gaining more functions all the time.

Also In before they take that video I linked down due to this post.

No fear of that...lol. The video is the best proof that the devs have been working hard and been delivering on promises. They will deliver on all their promises at some point although maybe not in exactly the way you expect them to or even the way they expected to back in 2013. In most cases, they have exceeded what they promised and even delivered more than they promised with features that are in the game not even announced in that video. Thanks so much for sharing that video again. I haven't seen it in awhile and it is great seeing how well this game has come together and how so much of what they originally planned is now in the game with the last bits coming soon.

 

[Rotor]

So, about 78%

Or about 2.5 years to go.

Got it .

 

[Jinx_DG]

Claim #1: 7DTD is an open world voxel sandbox based game

This claim is 100% fulfilled. It is true that for a pure sandbox experience the player should enable the creative menu and liberally use Godmode but even without that there are many ways to play and have fun in the world.

Claim #2: 7DTD is a unique mix of 1st person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role playing games

This claim is 100% fulfilled. There is no other game on the market that fuses these genres in the way our game does which is why after 9 years in development it continues to grow in popularity. There are elements of all of these genres very much apparent in the game and they work well together to make something greater than the sum of its parts.

Claim #3: The game has multiple biomes and hundreds of POIs that are fully explorable including cities and skyscrapers

This is claim is 95% fulfilled. The number and method of spawning biomes has changed over development but there are still desert, snow, wasteland/burnt, forest/plains/mountains, and water with radiation zones still planned to come. For example there used to be a dedicated plains biome whereas now within the overall forest biome there are areas of flat plains and areas of mountainous terrain but these variations of landscape are still present and can be explored.

Claim #4: A story

This claim is 10% fulfilled. There are notes and decorations and POIs that tell stories and give clues about what happened but they are all separate and a complete story is not yet implemented. The beginnings of two factions that will help drive the story are currently in development and are the foundation for the story that will be a part of the game. The main focus points of the story have been revealed: Noah of the Whiteriver Clan and The Duke and his henchmen. I will note that in the original video the story of the game was simply going to be a sequence of linking notes that could be found and I believe the story structure we will end up getting will be more dynamic and robust than the simple one promised in the video.

Claim #5: You will need to survive by finding food and water and managing health, stamina, hunger, and hydration. You will be able to boost your stats through character development.

This claim is 100% fulfilled. Even the new dew collector and water survival rules show they are still committed to making the survival aspect of the game interesting and fun and not just a tedious job.

Claim #6: You can farm crops and hunt wild animals

This claim is 100% fulfilled. These activities also have supporting perks to go with them.

Claim #7: Day and night cycles that dramatically affect the strength and speed of the zombies

This claim is 100% fulfilled. Stronger feral zombies spawn at night and the zombies move faster at night than they do during the game. The bloodmoon has the biggest effect of all every 7 days.

Claim #8: You can build traps and defenses for your base

This claim is 100% true. Not much else to say about it.

Claim #9: You can loot, mine, and craft

This claim is 100% true. All three elements are part of the game. Granted the spatial crafting was replaced by list crafting but the essence of the promise is fully fulfilled. In A21 crafting is going to get a huge boost thanks to the new magazine system that separates it from the perk trees. The loot rebalance also means you will be crafting weapons and tools at least as often as finding them in loot.

Claim #10:  You'll be able to craft generators, machines, and vehicles

This claim is 100% true. With five craftable vehicles including one that grants flight, robotic drones and turrets, and electrical devices connected to generators the game delivered on this promise big time.

Claim #11: Enemies can sense you and a relentless in their pursuit of you

This claim is 100% true. I admit that some specific senses have been abstracted together into a general sense of the player rather than specific smelling of meat which is unfortunate in my opinion but the idea of having enemies that sense you and hear you and come to investigate noises they hear and once they see you they pursue you to kill you is all there.

Claim #12: There will be special enemies

This claim is 100% true. There are several special enemy types with specialized attacks beyond the basic zombie abilities.

Claim #13: Bandits and Boss Characters

This claim is 20% true. Bandits are being worked on presently and the Duke boss character as well as the Noah boss character have been discussed and elements of their presence in the game are already implemented. They plan to add both melee and ranged combat bandits and that there will be two factions for the player to manage as they strive to survive.

Claim #14: Structural integrity, gravity physics, and destructible structures will be part of the game

This claim is 100% true and has been for a long time...

Claim #15: As the player progresses they will be able to craft items with a higher quality level

This claim is 100% true

Claim #16: Different food types will have different purity levels granting more or less health and other abilities to the player

This claim is 100% true.

Claim #17: You can stealth past enemies and throw distractors to draw their attention elsewhere

This claim is 100% true. There is no claim that you will be 100% successful at it but there is a stealth component to the game and I agree with most responders on here that if you enjoy playing stealth then it is very much worth spending points to enhance your stealth skills. If you just care about the most efficient way to clear a building then stealth may not be for you. But that does not invalidate the fact that stealth is a part of the game.

Claim #18: You can craft various distractors and attractors to mess with the zombies

This claim is 0% true. Not certain if this has been abandoned or just an oversight.

Claim #19: You can gain XP and use it to purchase skills and perk upgrades in various ability trees

This claim is 100% true and closer to the original claim with the current system than it was with the LBD system in earlier versions.

Claim #20: You can even learn a special finishing move

This claim is probably 70% true as it morphed into power attacks for each of the weapons. Not everything always stays exactly the same as the original concept once development gets underway but there are power attacks for each weapon that often are finishing moves in melee combat. <shrug>

Claim #21: Play solo, co-op, or MP in a special Nomad mode with leaderboards and where you can play as a zombie.

This claim is 66% true. Solo and co-op are in and many do play PVP MP using the base game but the dedicated MP PVP mode in which you can play as a zombie and where there will be leaderboards is not implemented yet. It is planned but may not make it in before full release.

Claim #22: Use creative tools for POI and world building

This claim is 100% true and the tools the devs are making available to players to create POI's in the editor and craft their own custom world maps is improving and gaining more functions all the time.

No fear of that...lol. The video is the best proof that the devs have been working hard and been delivering on promises. They will deliver on all their promises at some point although maybe not in exactly the way you expect them to or even the way they expected to back in 2013. In most cases, they have exceeded what they promised and even delivered more than they promised. Thanks so much for sharing that video again. I haven't seen it in awhile and it is great seeing how well this game has come together and how so much of what they originally planned is now in the game with the last bits coming soon.

Wish there was a way to save this so I could reference it to others, or have it possibly pinned?

 

[Laz Man]

Claim #11: Enemies can sense you and a relentless in their pursuit of you

This claim is 100% true. I admit that some specific senses have been abstracted together into a general sense of the player rather than specific smelling of meat which is unfortunate in my opinion but the idea of having enemies that sense you and hear you and come to investigate noises they hear and once they see you they pursue you to kill you is all there.

You forget to mention feral sense.  Personally, I think it should be on by default during the day but understand that would boost difficulty too high for alot of players.

 

[Roland]

Wish there was a way to save this so I could reference it to others, or have it possibly pinned?

done!

 

[warmer]

I think stealth is overpowered current in non horde night scenarios. They should bring the smell factor back.

If you are wearing zero noise armour and  maxed out the extra damage skill and bonus to move silently skill + maxed parkour. Once I had a scoped compound crossbow I would only get a non 1 shot kill sneak headshot when I get surprised. Combat really got boring until horde nights when the skill became useless.

Other than that if I was slow (cost of time in game to do stuff) I could get nearly every clear and fetch mission without triggering awareness. Some ambush section I could take out several zombies before I had to enter line of sight.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I have no more diplomacy to add to the never ending library of threads this topic generates every six months or so.

Only knives...

Because clearly, you don't want to alter your strategy to fit the world you've chosen.  You want the world to change to fit you instead.

 

[Roland]

I have no more diplomacy to add to the never ending library of threads this topic generates every six months or so.

Only knives...

Because clearly, you don't want to alter your strategy to fit the world you've chosen.  You want the world to change to fit you instead.

He just wants A16. These threads always sprout from the A16/A17 fork. It take about 6 months of internalized dreaming of "What if the devs had done all the A18, A19, and A20 improvements on the A16 foundation instead of the A17 foundation?????" before it has to spill out into an angry post about how the game all went wrong in 2019.

 

[BFT2020]

At least they made stealth in 7D2D different than what was done in Skyrim