PC Hard-core survival description on Steam store

[Matt115]

I agree. A description doesn't need to lie to put a positive spin on anything. What would be mediocre about saying it has "survival" included instead of "hard-core survival" included? Especially since at least as many players would be detered by the "hard-core" label as would be attracted.

I think even "hardcore survival" can be negative describtion for some people so.... i think  it just should be just "survival" because this is the most true option

 

[Roland]

@Roland Sure. I know that. If you see it from a black and white perspective it´s flatout lying to the customer though.

I agree. A description doesn't need to lie to put a positive spin on anything.

Just want to point out that I don't believe that "hardcore survival" is a lie and that's why I don't feel any motivation to tell Rick that it should be changed. It may not be as hardcore as other games but it is more hardcore than other games. I think the description is fine and apt. Some of you will believe with your whole soul that the description doesn't fit because of your own definition of what hardcore should entail. That's a valid opinion but it doesn't make the advertising description an outright lie.

If the description only said survival instead of hardcore survival I also wouldn't feel an overwhelming moral responsibility to get the word hardcore added. I don't disagree with a player's perspective that for them the game is not hardcore survival. It is always interesting to hear other perspectives and I, myself, would be happy to see a few more tweaks towards more hardcore survival. But that doesn't mean TFP has an obligation to change that description. I disagree that it is false advertising.

 

[Jost Amman]

Though, to be honest, using "hardcore survival" in the description, will then entitle players to rant on the forums whenever anything doesn't fit a survival simulation. By using the hardcore word, you're also implying that the game is heavily shifted toward the survival simulation, more than the casual survival experience.

Cold weather doesn't freeze you to death? -> Not a hardcore survival game!

Don't get the flu when I stay out in the rain all day? -> Not a hardcore survival game!

Magic candies that let you jump off a building with no harm? -> Not a hardcore survival game!

IMO the issue is not much about "false advertisement", but more about player expectations based on the description.

 

[Roland]

This is how I would rank 7 Days to Die on several elements on a casual to hardcore spectrum. Happy to discuss my reasoning with anyone who disagrees and would move the sliders.

 

[Jost Amman]

This is how I would rank 7 Days to Die on several elements on a casual to hardcore spectrum. Happy to discuss my reasoning with anyone who disagrees and would move the sliders.

View attachment 26237

The problem with your survival rating, currently, is that IMO some parts could probably fit in the hardcore rating, but some other parts have been completely nerfed. So, as long as TFP are going, for example, to fix the effect of temperature, humidity and add illnesses along with that, then the hardcore rating would be deserved.

However, if all survival mechanics will stay as they are now until release, then the hardcore survival description IMO should be considered inaccurate.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Just want to point out that I don't believe that "hardcore survival" is a lie and that's why I don't feel any motivation to tell Rick that it should be changed. It may not be as hardcore as other games but it is more hardcore than other games. I think the description is fine and apt. Some of you will believe with your whole soul that the description doesn't fit because of your own definition of what hardcore should entail. That's a valid opinion but it doesn't make the advertising description an outright lie.

If the description only said survival instead of hardcore survival I also wouldn't feel an overwhelming moral responsibility to get the word hardcore added. I don't disagree with a player's perspective that for them the game is not hardcore survival. It is always interesting to hear other perspectives and I, myself, would be happy to see a few more tweaks towards more hardcore survival. But that doesn't mean TFP has an obligation to change that description. I disagree that it is false advertising.

Hardcore basically means top of the line here. And that´s simply not true. Not even close. And it doesn´t matter what someone thinks when playing 7 days for the first time. If they go and play a game with a harder survival part  after playing 7 days they will realize that the description of 7 days was wrong even though they thought it was hardcore when playing it for the first time.

If a game is more than hardcore concerning the survival part it would be a dying simulator where you just experience different kinds of dying all the time.

How would you define the survival part of games harder than 7 days? If 7 days is a hardcore survival experience what is the definition that describes the survival experience of The Long Dark or Green Hell then?

 

[Roland]

Hardcore basically means top of the line here. And that´s simply not true. Not even close. And it doesn´t matter what someone thinks when playing 7 days for the first time. If they go and play a game with a harder survival part  after playing 7 days they will realize that the description of 7 days was wrong even though they thought it was hardcore when playing it for the first time.

How would you define the survival part of games harder than 7 days? If 7 days is a hardcore survival experience what is the definition that describes the survival experience of The Long Dark or Green Hell then?

So only one game at a time can ever claim itself to be hardcore? I don't think so. "hardcore" isn't the heavyweight championship belt which only ever belongs to one person at a time. "hardcore" is the heavyweight category of which many belong and strive to be the champion. If the description said "king of all hardcore survival games" I would agree that it is a lie but just because there are other games more hardcore doesn't mean every single game below the most hardcore can't also claim to be hardcore. I disagree with this way of defining who gets call themselves hardcore.

How would you define the survival part of games harder than 7 days? If 7 days is a hardcore survival experience what is the definition that describes the survival experience of The Long Dark or Green Hell then?

They can also say they are hardcore. And if they wanted to give us a mention in their own description by saying "Even more hardcore than 7 Days to Die!" I would be delighted.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Nope there is several games that can claim they are hardcore survival and 7 days is not one of them. It´s not about a championship or who has the most hardcore game at all.

It´s only about how customers perceive it when looking at the description.

 

[Matt115]

This is how I would rank 7 Days to Die on several elements on a casual to hardcore spectrum. Happy to discuss my reasoning with anyone who disagrees and would move the sliders.

View attachment 26237

Suvival -  if "radical" right is project zomboid, then a little bit could be the forest 3 should be hm.... well idk how to write because title of this game is considered as "rude word". Then you have factorio after that Medieval dynasty and after that 7DTD and 'radical" left MC -

1 MEAN 7dtd

010 0 000

Building - radical right - Metal gear suvive, then valheim , then don't starve then 7dtd etc

000 1 000

Exploting 010 0 000

Farming 100  0  000

mining   010 0 000

combat 010 0 000

base defence 000 1 000

Crafting 000 1 000

char 010 0 000

RP - Depend on players - almost every sandbox can be RP

sandbox 010 0 000 

So @pApA^LeGBa is right

So only one game at a time can ever claim itself to be hardcore? I don't think so. "hardcore" isn't the heavyweight championship belt which only ever belongs to one person at a time. "hardcore" is the heavyweight category of which many belong and strive to be the champion. If the description said "king of all hardcore survival games" I would agree that it is a lie but just because there are other games more hardcore doesn't mean every single game below the most hardcore can't also claim to be hardcore. I disagree with this way of defining who gets call themselves hardcore.

Well it's heavyweight championship - if project zomboid is hardcore -  then everything have to be similiar to project zomboid to be hardcore - like green hell. And Project zomboid is from this same years as 7dtd so  7dtd is "casual" vs project zomboid - yes there are game you can call less hardcore but still hardcore like MG survive but 7dtd is almost MC tier

Nope there is several games that can claim that and 7 days is not one of them. It´s not about a championship or who has the most hardcore game at all.

It´s only about how customers perceive it when looking at the description.

Well project zomboid show what mean "hardcore game"

 

[Roland]

It´s only about how customers perceive it when looking at the description.

Great. Then 7 Days to Die qualifies for all the customers who perceive it that way and I am confident that enough people do that the description does not warrant editing.

Well it's heavyweight championship - if project zomboid is hardcore -  then everything have to be similiar to project zomboid to be hardcore - like green hell. And Project zomboid is from this same years as 7dtd so  7dtd is "casual" vs project zomboid - yes there are game you can call less hardcore but still hardcore like MG survive but 7dtd is almost MC tier

I appreciate your opinion. I agree that 7 Days is not the most hardcore. I don't believe that makes it casual. I think it is far beyond Minecraft though. But minecraft I would put far beyond 7 Days for mining.

 

[Matt115]

Great. Then 7 Days to Die qualifies for all the customers who perceive it that way and I am confident that enough people do that the description does not warrant editing.

I appreciate your opinion. I agree that 7 Days is not the most hardcore. I don't believe that makes it casual. I think it is far beyond Minecraft though. But minecraft I would put far beyond 7 Days for mining.

Beyond mining well i agree - the top right should be terraria because deep rock isn't sandbox but honestly have almost destructible world.

 mineraft is the most casual - combat is much complexed in  valheim or conan  that in 7dtd , farming is pretty safe in 7dtd while in raft you have birds and in MGS love area. 

Exploring is pretty easy - you don't  have to worry that you can find in random place explosing enemy like creeper , powerful enemy like in terraria or almost one hit kill enemies like in vanaheim - i hope add of bandits will make exploring harded but for it's hard to say.

In minecraft crating hm... idk how looks now but for some time was pretty hard because were so radomly - if could find rare materials easy sometimes , sometimes even basic materials were extrem rare. 

Buliding is almost like in minecraft - yes there are limits but very liberal - create building in vanaheim is much much harder because good quality wood is rare and you need quality wood for upgrades. In 7DTD you could easy make 2 floor building while in vanaheim will colapse if  you use standard wood.

Survive is pretty easy ( i talk about A20) - you can get food in high number pretty easy everywhere - this same thing with water- just do treasure quest. While in even pretty "dynamic" MGS you have to spend 10 hours to get enough water and food to go somewhere for longer time that 15 minutes.

Character progresion.... honestly hard to say - it's  connected with your loot  - in biding of issac you can get terrible or soo good builds - in 7dtd if you want to use shotguns and almost always get smg -- then it's problem to be effective but other hand - you can focus on INT then after you get enough loot focus on weapons. So if Character progression is hardcore? Well in Wellness period yes. now not so much

 

[theFlu]

This may just be semantic games, I don't really care about a marketing pitch. I thought I was bored enough to participate, but I guess wasn't, so the below is incoherent. I'll post it anyway.

Survival being all things related to health; heat, nutrition, disease, wounds, maybe strength(/conditioning/stamina). Describing a game as "partly a survival game" would imply that there are elements of the above, but they're not all that significant.

Describing a game as a "pure survival" would mean that most of the gameplay is focused on solving those issues in whatever environment the game takes place in. A "pure survival" would essentially require a hardcore approach, which to me implies a "certainty of failure - if not skillfully avoided", or something to that nature. To reach "hardcore", survival would have to be an actual issue, something that makes you drop whatever you're doing to solve a survival issue before carrying on. Or having to specifically work for, at least.

As it stands, the survival elements are basically solved by the same thing you'd be doing After solving the survival issues - "just do your trader loop". There's not really anything to do specifically about survival in any stage of the game, it just solves itself by raiding more cabinets and end loots. Day 1, run to trader, make your stone axe and club, get a quest. Find food at quest, eat it. If unlucky, buy food from vending machine at trader. I can't really call that even "survival effort", much less hardcore.

Now, 7dtd is only partially survival, for sure, with plenty of other core elements; this makes it easier to be lenient with the description, but I'd still see "hardcore survival" as an error. It's partially a balance problem, the game could be tuned to get to a hardcore survival feel out of the current mechanics, but as it stands, the solution to all current survival challenges is basically "just do the trader loop".

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Great. Then 7 Days to Die qualifies for all the customers who perceive it that way and I am confident that enough people do that the description does not warrant editing.

Well they only perceive the game as hardcore when playing it, if they have no comparison. So you are going to let the majority that has absolutly no experience deceide what is wrong and what is not wrong? That´s usually not a great idea. I mean there isn´t a real lot of harm done here and mostly to TFP as there will be some people that are dissapointed to a certain degree. But generally it´s a bad idea to let the majority deceide.  If only that would also be the case if it´s about the game itself. Ah well.

Another small step that leads more and more to TFP just beeing like the majority of the industry. Well, there is always new indie studios to try out and i don´t see the survival genre dying anytime soon.

 

[Roland]

But generally it´s a bad idea to let the majority deceide.

Its not the majority choosing. Its just Rick who makes the final decision and that's what he went with. Its not about the majority choosing the descriptor, its about the majority not being disappointed by their expectations based on the descriptor. Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Its not the majority choosing. Its just Rick who makes the final decision and that's what he went with. Its not about the majority choosing the descriptor, its about the majority not being disappointed by their expectations based on the descriptor. Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.

Well they will be dissapointed once they play other survival games that are harder. It´s a shortsighted view only thinking of people who have their first experience in the genre with this game.

 

[theFlu]

Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.

I'll try to use the same level of logic to formulate a response; What, you don't care about the minorities?!  What an outragist and a logophobe to boot!

 

[Roland]

Well they will be dissapointed once they play other survival games that are harder. It´s a shortsighted view only thinking of people who have their first experience in the genre with this game.

Possibly they'll be disappointed or possibly they'll just feel like they graduated to a higher level of hardcore and not hold any grudge against 7 Days to Die for daring to call itself hardcore. I believe the second to be true. Honestly, you sound like those regulars at the comic book store who argue every little definition and continuity issue and care about all the minute details which makes them disappointed in certain issues that nobody else in the world who reads the comics cares about. Frankly, I doubt we could ever satisfy the hardcore survival elite fans no matter what.

Regardless, shortsighted or not, the description isn't likely to change.

 

[Matt115]

Possibly they'll be disappointed or possibly they'll just feel like they graduated to a higher level of hardcore and not hold any grudge against 7 Days to Die for daring to call itself hardcore. I believe the second to be true. Honestly, you sound like those regulars at the comic book store who argue every little definition and continuity issue and care about all the minute details which makes them disappointed in certain issues that nobody else in the world who reads the comics cares about. Frankly, I doubt we could ever satisfy the hardcore survival elite fans no matter what.

Regardless, shortsighted or not, the description isn't likely to change.

This could be done... how = take 7dtd mix with project zomboid --> you will get perfect game for hardcore fans

 

[Jost Amman]

Just to clarify, in case I was misinterpreted. I'm not saying that description is "a scam", I'm not saying that TFP are lying by saying that.

I'm just saying that until the devs fix and/or improve some of the survival mechanics, that description is not currently in line with how most of the survival elements play.

Fixes and improvements needed, in my opinion, are:

1. Make effects from cold/hot weather significant again (make clothing great again!)
   
2. Reintroduce diseases and illnesses: stay out in the cold too much? You get a cold! Stay more? You can even get the Flu.
   
3. Make hunger and thirst have more relevant effects: dizzy effect when very thirsty and lower stats when very hungry.
   
4. Introduce mental health: the old Starvation mod had this part done very well (if you go insane, you start hearing REAL voices whispering!)
   
5. (Re)introduce extreme weather events (depending on biome): sand storms in the desert, snow storms in the snow biome, lightning strikes in the woods!
   
6. (Re)introduce a wellness system: if you eat a balanced diet you'll be full strength, but if you only eat meat or if you only eat veggies you'll get weak and then ill.
   

 

[SnowDog1942]

So only one game at a time can ever claim itself to be hardcore? I don't think so. "hardcore" isn't the heavyweight championship belt which only ever belongs to one person at a time. "hardcore" is the heavyweight category of which many belong and strive to be the champion. 

Actually a new belt is given out each time someone wins.  The belt does not get endlessly passed back and forth.  
 

so, many people could, and usually do, have belts at the same time