PC Farming not very viable even with living off the land 3.

[SunGod]

Count me in as really loathing the new farming system. It's ultra-grindy and frustratingly inefficient. What's the actual point of me investing in Living Off The Land skills when getting back seeds is such a crapshoot? Sorry Pimps, looooooong time player here since Alpha 5, but this is not a great way to address your concern about players having too much food.

Want to make food harder to grow? Then instead try these things that would make a LOT more sense than how A20 does it:

1. Introduce weather effects on plant growth. Too cold? Then slow or halt the growth rate.
   
2. Alternate growth speed based on available sunlight and day length. Players love day lengths of 9 hours? Then give them 7 hours of light that contributes to plant growth, or lowers the yield.
   
3. Introduce plant fungi and diseases that can kill crops. Don't catch it in time and you planted everything too closely together? Then you lose everything. Will also force you to keep an eye on your crops rather than venturing out into the world and taking it for granted everything will grow just fine
   
4. Introduce soil fertility as a factor for plant yield. Planting in crappy soil or desert scrub? Then get a low yield. High fertilized and high watered soil? Then get a high yield. (I seem to recall fertilizer being an option some years back.)
   

But I agree with OP, having a random seed-return rate despite having invested points into the farming skill is pretty ridiculous. Seems the game is way overweighted on crafting junk like helicopters and 4x4s, and just really missed the mark on farming in A20. Downvote from me, big turnoff.

 

[PoppaSmirk]

So,  as someone with more than 2000 hours of playtime,  from versions 16 to the current Alpha 20;  I'm not going to declare myself an expert of any sort;  merely a gamer that enjoys this game very much,  in solo play and also as a great bit of fun with 2-3 friends.  I am somewhat of the Planning Sort,  a Doomsday Prepper that is "livin the dream'  when playing 7D2D  I tend to be the one that my friends look to,  for the last word on what building to finally settle in as our base, and to coordinate a lot of the defenses that are planned to be installed, the food situation,  etc.  

So since the release of Alpha 20,  Myself and 2 others (and twice so far we had a 4th player) have started a new Random Gen World.  I waited on farming until we gathered a variety of seeds  (which was slow) and finally on Day 20 I crafted  14 farm plots to get started in farming,  so Our Intrepid Band of Survivors could get out of the rut of feeling that Bacon & Eggs was the best that life could give.  I didn't know prior to My first planting on Day 21, that farming had been changed.  I did lave level 2 of LOTL.  So when I planted 7 corn seeds,  2 Mushroom spores, and an Aloe Vera plant,  I expected  14 corn, 4 mushroom, and 2 Aloe Vera.  What happened did leave me shocked and dismayed.  On Day 24, I harvested a total of 12 corn, and 3 corn seeds.  4 mushrooms and 1 mushroom spore, and 4 aloe vera.  So In shock,  I realise that My 2nd planting is not going to be as plentiful as the first.  With the yield I had,  using no other resources, I could only replant 5 corn seeds (using 10 from the harvest to craft 2 more seeds , added to the 3 seeds I harvested).  I could only replant 1 mushroom spore, as the 4 that I harvested were not enough to create a new spore. The aloe vera I could only toss into our Med Supplies box.  So at the end of a harvest of 10 plants, I ended up with 2 ears of corn, 4 mushroom, 4 aloe vera.  Definitely not a situation to feel hopeful about.  

I really do not mind that there is now a chance of only getting "a seed'  as part of a plant harvest.  I do think that the 50% chance is too high if a player has Level 2 of LOTL,  because your perk/skills alone indicate that you are past being a fledgling to farming..   I also have some difficulty in the line of thought that "they are trying to make farming more realistic";  because I feel if that were true,  then it wouldn't take 5 plants to produce a new seed. so we aren't talking about  "realism".  At best the discussion should be "value of added gameplay"  Farming is literally not for everyone  One woman that plays with us would rather have everyone else take care of the farming,  she gets her little thrills out of coming back to base after a 2-3 day loot run and then creating PILES of meat stew ( and later spaghetti), and nothing else seems to interest her in the "base building and maintenance" portions of daily life in 7D2D.   Now for myself and the other man that plays regularly with us,  we enjoy farming,  we enjoy using the crops to create some variety in our food supply.  A good farm means the chance of making meals that satisfy hunger longer, plus we think its a sign that we are doing just a little bit more than merely "surviving"  So for "added gameplay value"  I could very easily get behind the idea that sometimes,  crops do fail.  This idea keeps it a viable option to continue bringing seeds back to your base during a loot run,  as opposed to the situation we often had in Alpha 19, when I would reach the 'limit"  on how many seeds I needed,  by Day 18-20.  because in all honesty,  once you had a couple of each seed,  you could continue creating new seeds over time,  without ever needing to bring back any seeds from scavenging locations.  However,  if leaving the 50% chance of getting only a seed,  in at LOTL level 1, then getting level 2 of LOTL should show some progression in your farming skills.  I would suggest the chance of only getting a seed would go from 50% down to 40%.    I would also prefer to see the amount of plants needed to make a new seed,  to drop from 5 plants/ears/fruits/items,  down to 4 plants/fruits/items at LOTL Level 2.  Then at Level 3 of LOTL, the chance to only get a seed could feel like the Player really has grown as a farmer,  if seed chance drops to 25%, and the cost to create a new seed drops to just 3 plants/fruits/ears/items..  Then the Skill supports the concept that by LOTL Level 3,  you are an experienced farmer now, you learned, and can now bring in bushels of food each harvest day.   An unlucky harvest at LOTL Lv 3 is not going to doom your self or your group to "need" to scavenge more seeds or go back to eating nothing but grilled meat.

I add these comments because I feel there are many that do enjoy farming,  just as many also get into base building,  and some into adding aesthetics,  or building vehicles,  or making exotic kill zones for Horde nights.  Each activity is part of the total package of fun to be had in playing the game.  If I simply wanted an intricately detailed survival experience, then I would just binge watch the TV series,  "Naked and Afraid".  I do hope that some of the Developers happen to read this post, and can find some thoughtful ideas.  I very much respect and enjoy the game, for all of the great thrills to be found;  but I hope they will see that having farming in game doesn't have to mean its only a chore to grind out,  we already have mining & looting to fill the "grinding need"  ( and don't get me started on asking "why are NONE of the workbenches in the POIS of the world working?   That too is totally unrealistic, especially in the Traders POIs )

But I do hope I give some "food for thought" in my discussion of the Alpha 20 experimental farming situation.

 

[BuildingWorker]

if there is an automated farm...

 

[Ianua]

I've been thinking about the "it takes 5 corn to make a seed" argument and it occurs to me that I have been thinking about this wrong.  I actually garden (if you can call it that) IRL. I do this because my hubby is disabled and LOVES anything outside, so he needs my assistance. I hate the outdoors and have a brown thumb.

My efforts to grow seedlings are comical. Out of 10 plants I might get 3 that survive to the stage that they can go outside to be planted. I have tried peat pots, tiny indoor greenhouses, special lights, we even own an actual outdoor greenhouse which I gave up on using after 5 years. It isn't that I am stupid, just plants and I are not a thing.  So perhaps instead of thinking of  "5 potato for one seed" when we know a potato can give you 5 or more eyes to plant, think of it as ok, you only managed to get 1 viable plant that survives to maturity to produce food.

I don't know about the new mechanic since I haven't booted up an A20 game yet, but I'm sure I will adapt. The game is still outrageously fun. Please change the nest respawns so they aren't linked to zombie spawns or loot respawn. nests being replenished makes sense unless the birds are all dead, 

 

[meganoth]

So,  as someone with more than 2000 hours of playtime,  from versions 16 to the current Alpha 20;  I'm not going to declare myself an expert of any sort;  merely a gamer that enjoys this game very much,  in solo play and also as a great bit of fun with 2-3 friends.  I am somewhat of the Planning Sort,  a Doomsday Prepper that is "livin the dream'  when playing 7D2D  I tend to be the one that my friends look to,  for the last word on what building to finally settle in as our base, and to coordinate a lot of the defenses that are planned to be installed, the food situation,  etc.  

So since the release of Alpha 20,  Myself and 2 others (and twice so far we had a 4th player) have started a new Random Gen World.  I waited on farming until we gathered a variety of seeds  (which was slow) and finally on Day 20 I crafted  14 farm plots to get started in farming,  so Our Intrepid Band of Survivors could get out of the rut of feeling that Bacon & Eggs was the best that life could give.  I didn't know prior to My first planting on Day 21, that farming had been changed.  I did lave level 2 of LOTL.  So when I planted 7 corn seeds,  2 Mushroom spores, and an Aloe Vera plant,  I expected  14 corn, 4 mushroom, and 2 Aloe Vera.  What happened did leave me shocked and dismayed.  On Day 24, I harvested a total of 12 corn, and 3 corn seeds.  4 mushrooms and 1 mushroom spore, and 4 aloe vera. 

This can't be. If you plant 7 corn seeds, you would get back 14 corn without any LOTL and 28 with LOTL 1 or LOTL 2. And the other numbers are consistent with you having NO LOTL when you did your first harvest.

Possibly a bug, if you can replicate it I'm sure TFP would like to know. If not, maybe you increased LOTL only after your harvested or forgot really to do it. What you have been experiencing is the situation of someone with no farming knowledge at all (and you probably only put 6 corn seed down)

Please check what level of LOTL you have now and maybe recreate the situation with seeds from creative menue. Do it again and you will notice you get 28 corn seeds back, usually more than enough to reaquire the lost seeds.

TFP also already announced that they will buff LOTL 2 to be exactly between 1 and 3 in harvest results.

So In shock,  I realise that My 2nd planting is not going to be as plentiful as the first.  With the yield I had,  using no other resources, I could only replant 5 corn seeds (using 10 from the harvest to craft 2 more seeds , added to the 3 seeds I harvested).  I could only replant 1 mushroom spore, as the 4 that I harvested were not enough to create a new spore. The aloe vera I could only toss into our Med Supplies box.  So at the end of a harvest of 10 plants, I ended up with 2 ears of corn, 4 mushroom, 4 aloe vera.  Definitely not a situation to feel hopeful about.  

I really do not mind that there is now a chance of only getting "a seed'  as part of a plant harvest.  I do think that the 50% chance is too high if a player has Level 2 of LOTL,  because your perk/skills alone indicate that you are past being a fledgling to farming..   I also have some difficulty in the line of thought that "they are trying to make farming more realistic";  because I feel if that were true,  then it wouldn't take 5 plants to produce a new seed. so we aren't talking about  "realism".  At best the discussion should be "value of added gameplay"  Farming is literally not for everyone  One woman that plays with us would rather have everyone else take care of the farming,  she gets her little thrills out of coming back to base after a 2-3 day loot run and then creating PILES of meat stew ( and later spaghetti), and nothing else seems to interest her in the "base building and maintenance" portions of daily life in 7D2D.   Now for myself and the other man that plays regularly with us,  we enjoy farming,  we enjoy using the crops to create some variety in our food supply.  A good farm means the chance of making meals that satisfy hunger longer, plus we think its a sign that we are doing just a little bit more than merely "surviving"  So for "added gameplay value"  I could very easily get behind the idea that sometimes,  crops do fail.  This idea keeps it a viable option to continue bringing seeds back to your base during a loot run,  as opposed to the situation we often had in Alpha 19, when I would reach the 'limit"  on how many seeds I needed,  by Day 18-20.  because in all honesty,  once you had a couple of each seed,  you could continue creating new seeds over time,  without ever needing to bring back any seeds from scavenging locations.  However,  if leaving the 50% chance of getting only a seed,  in at LOTL level 1, then getting level 2 of LOTL should show some progression in your farming skills.  I would suggest the chance of only getting a seed would go from 50% down to 40%.    I would also prefer to see the amount of plants needed to make a new seed,  to drop from 5 plants/ears/fruits/items,  down to 4 plants/fruits/items at LOTL Level 2.  Then at Level 3 of LOTL, the chance to only get a seed could feel like the Player really has grown as a farmer,  if seed chance drops to 25%, and the cost to create a new seed drops to just 3 plants/fruits/ears/items..  Then the Skill supports the concept that by LOTL Level 3,  you are an experienced farmer now, you learned, and can now bring in bushels of food each harvest day.   An unlucky harvest at LOTL Lv 3 is not going to doom your self or your group to "need" to scavenge more seeds or go back to eating nothing but grilled meat.

I add these comments because I feel there are many that do enjoy farming,  just as many also get into base building,  and some into adding aesthetics,  or building vehicles,  or making exotic kill zones for Horde nights.  Each activity is part of the total package of fun to be had in playing the game.  If I simply wanted an intricately detailed survival experience, then I would just binge watch the TV series,  "Naked and Afraid".  I do hope that some of the Developers happen to read this post, and can find some thoughtful ideas.  I very much respect and enjoy the game, for all of the great thrills to be found;  but I hope they will see that having farming in game doesn't have to mean its only a chore to grind out,  we already have mining & looting to fill the "grinding need"  ( and don't get me started on asking "why are NONE of the workbenches in the POIS of the world working?   That too is totally unrealistic, especially in the Traders POIs )

But I do hope I give some "food for thought" in my discussion of the Alpha 20 experimental farming situation.

 

[PoppaSmirk]

In response to the post above,  I am diligent in My tracking of My skills, and of course, as I stated I did wait until Day 20 to make any farm plots simply because I had wanted to wait until I had spent additional skill points to bring LOTL up to Level 2,  and another has made comment that they felt it might be a bug.  With that in mind,  and reading through the forums here, I did also notice the nice  royal blue notice along the top of the Forum Pages,  saying for best results in using Alpha 20 experimental, a person should delete all previous versions saves.  I instantly remembered that I had saved one very special Alpha 19 save,  possibly to revisit later (or just to show a friend or two..."how fabulous looking one of My prior game worlds looked", as I had renovated several buildings in a one block area of My base and made one into a pizza parlor,  one into a "Secure parking lot  --- for My Bdubs Mod vehicles",  and a Days End Hotel, transformed into an Aeroport, complete with gift shop and Player Vending machines inside to sell repaired surplus items.   So with a fond farewell,  last night I even deleted that save,  then restarted with a fresh install again of Alpha 20 experimental.  I'm currently on Day 3 of that new Random Gen world,  so not ready to do any farming yet,  and of course I will be paying close attention to the circumstances and the results when I start farming again.   If any are interested,  I will post later on the results.

 

[jams]

That's the mistake. If you aren't level 3 of LOTL then don't craft seeds. Just keep all the crops you can and only plant the seeds you get back or find in the world. Your farm will wax and wain over time. 

This is the stupidest comment in this thread.  If everything works correctly, even LOTL 1 on a sufficiently large sample size (like the one in the post you replied to), should make it impossible to "wax and wain".  That is if the 50% seed return works properly and you save enough seeds/plants to replace an unlucky roll.

So far my single test has been discouraging - 2 seeds from a 10 plant coffee harvest, just enough to replant everything with 0 surplus generated.  While this should be a rare occurrence, it will still has a 4.4% chance, or 1/22 harvests, so I'm OK with it.  However this happening so many times in a row that 36 plants dwindle to nothing points either to @Zeellott lying or a problem in the code (neither of which you responded to properly).

 

[Roland]

This is the stupidest comment in this thread.  If everything works correctly, even LOTL 1 on a sufficiently large sample size (like the one in the post you replied to), should make it impossible to "wax and wain".  That is if the 50% seed return works properly and you save enough seeds/plants to replace an unlucky roll.

It seems like a stupid statement to you because you are still trying to play the game with an A19 mentality. This happens every alpha update when a feature changes. People who stay stuck in the past and keep trying to do the same thing they've always done come on the forum and declare the new feature impossible because they are too rigid to adapt. But it doesn't take long for the wise and adaptable players to start sharing their experiences and eventually even the most dense player figures out the new meta and has success-- or they revert to the old alpha and call that the pinnacle of the game's success and never leave. (There are still A16 servers running after all)

Trying to farm with an A19 mentality where you turn all of your crops into seeds whenever possible while at LOTL 0 or LOTL 1 or LOTL 2 is definitely going to result in a diminishing farm until you have nothing left. You are correct that sticking to that old strategy that worked because 100% of plants regrew is going to result in failure now if you try it. You will waste all your crops on diminishing seed returns.

My comment about waxing and waning had to do with an A20 mentality. In A20 it is advisable to not try and grow your farm by turning all your crops into seeds when you are at LOTL 0, 1, or 2 but to instead keep all your crops for food and plant any seeds you get back. Your garden will start diminishing but then you will find more seeds in loot and also at the trader that you can then plant and when you do find these things your garden will grow again. Waxing and waning means to get smaller and then get bigger and then smaller and so on. The loot table change in A20 makes this possible as long as you are using what you grow for food and not wasting it on seed crafting. Only those who invest fully into LOTL 3 will be able to create a large self restoring farm and should be the only ones crafting seeds to maintain or grow the size of their farms.

Now, you will either grok this or not which will determine whether you think this comment exceeds my last in stupidity. But just know that I am planting every seed I find and every seed I get back at harvest and I'm accumulating enough crops to make some recipes. Sometimes my garden is larger and sometimes smaller. I do not have a stack of stews in my food crate but I have enough combined with canned food and bacon and eggs to survive day to day. In my MP game my Mom is LOTL 3 and is easily growing the farm and producing plenty of crops and we currently have a stack of 18 stews and 1 blueberry pie as well as a stack of bacon and eggs which is enough for the three of us to not have to worry much about food.

Spoiler

So it seems I misunderstood what you were saying with most of my focus when I did read it being on the way you said it instead of what you were actually saying.

So the answer I should have said was that even though the guy was mistaken (or lying) about his farm failing with LOTL 1 and that it is possible to maintain and grow a farm even with LOTL 1 as long as you reinvest most if not all of your crops back into it, there is also another way to play with farming which is to simply eat all the crops you get which will result in a fluctuating farm size.

My advice to him was not stupid-- merely another pathway that people can choose to take that works if your goal is to have a garden that provides ingredients for recipes. I was wrong to say that it is the advisable way to farm. It just depends on your goals for your farm.

Now if the goal is simply to grow a large scale farm then, you are correct that you should use all or most of your crops to craft seeds and that even on really bad luck harvests you should be able to still maintain your farm size by using all of your crops and then hope for better luck on the next harvest. In this manner it does appear that you can eventually achieve a large farm and that the risks of completely losing everything is very low.

 

[warmer]

With the update, it's nice there is a chance to find an extra crop, but it's entirely unrealistic to not guarantee a seed from every harvested plant plot. I grew some onions last year and have over 1000 seeds from the 12 seeds I initially planted.

It is just SO counter to reality. A chance for 1 additional seed makes more sense, and making it take longer to grow is how you nerf it in my opinion. Not make seed harder to find.

 

[ricp]

Got to say, while I haven't read the full thread, what I have reflects my opinion on this.

It simply should not be possible to grow a plant and not get a seed from it. It's a shame that TFP have chosen farming as a way to affect the difficulty, as it's a very basic implementation as it is, and any changes only highlight how basic it is.

I get it, most people like PvE/PvP rather than farming, but there are a lot of us farmers out there. Either take the whole thing away or replace it with a better (and more complex) system. Taking what we had and chipping away at it further is just frustrating as hell for the player.

If it means nothing changing in A20 regarding the farming, and I have to manually edit the config files, so be it... so long as A21 has the farming addressed properly, or completely removed.

Just for clarity, I am not ignoring the amount of work needed to properly address farming, but it's something that desperately needs some serious love, not to be hacked apart to affect progression - to me that would be the wrong solution for a different problem.

 

[meganoth]

It seems like a stupid statement to you because you are still trying to play the game with an A19 mentality. This happens every alpha update when a feature changes. People who stay stuck in the past and keep trying to do the same thing they've always done come on the forum and declare the new feature impossible because they are too rigid to adapt. But it doesn't take long for the wise and adaptable players to start sharing their experiences and eventually even the most dense player figures out the new meta and has success-- or they revert to the old alpha and call that the pinnacle of the game's success and never leave. (There are still A16 servers running after all)

Trying to farm with an A19 mentality where you turn all of your crops into seeds whenever possible while at LOTL 0 or LOTL 1 or LOTL 2 is definitely going to result in a diminishing farm until you have nothing left. You are correct that sticking to that old strategy that worked because 100% of plants regrew is going to result in failure now if you try it. You will waste all your crops on diminishing seed returns.

And you are wrong and that has nothing to do with some A19 mentality. With LotL 1 the farm will on average grow and with say 10 seeds found (at any time) it is almost impossible to get to the point where you have nothing left. I calculated the math and I wrote a program to simulate it as well, I'm as sure of it as someone can be

It still may be too much work to grow a large farm with LotL1 and therefore someone may come to the conclusion to not produce seeds from food. No question about that. But if he wants a farm, LotL1 is enough

 

[GlyphGryph]

I guess I still don't understand the farming changes in terms of making the game more enjoyable to play. If it really does basically amount to "You need max level farming to actually maintain a farm" which, you know, fine, I guess? But that doesn't seem like it actually changes much except that it means any player not going full bore into that tree isn't going to be able to reliably make good food and drinks, and... is that really the desirable outcome? It feels like its mostly a nerf to cooking for strength specced folks than anything else at this point. It's also odd that it works the same way for all crops. You'd think simpler and less valuable crops would be easier to farm, from a gameplay perspective, you know? So if you want a huge farm of supercorn lv3 is important, but if you just want to maintain a small potato and berry garden then lv1 would be enough.

If the point was that farming was too easy, to automatic, it seems like the actual plan should be to introduce some level of actual thought to the process? Blights or pests or something where you have to think about how to best solve or prevent the problem, maybe some level of maintenance work where you do less of it at higher and the bigger your farms get the more elements there actually are to interact with, both positive and negative.

Anyway, yeah, as is I just don't get it, the change seems solely to make it so farming happens later and is more annoying when it does and that's about it, and I guess I don't really see the point.

 

[Roland]

And you are wrong and that has nothing to do with some A19 mentality. With LotL 1 the farm will on average grow and with say 10 seeds found (at any time) it is almost impossible to get to the point where you have nothing left. I calculated the math and I wrote a program to simulate it as well.

It still may be too much work to grow a large farm with LotL1 and therefore someone may come to the conclusion to not produce seeds from food. No question about that. But if he wants a farm, LotL1 is enough

One person says that my statement about farms increasing and diminishing over time is stupid because at LOTL 1 your farm is just going to diminish until you have nothing left.

You say that my statement that people should not use crops to craft seeds at LOTL 1 is wrong because mathematically the probability that your farm will diminish to nothing is very very small and that you should be able to maintain/increase your farm at LOTL 1 if you are dedicated to that goal.

<shrug>

I will take back my claims that the farm won't completely diminish and my claim that the farm won't grow since I haven't in fact personally experienced either path to its conclusion. 

I will just state that I have been having a lot of fun simply planting seeds I find, buy, and get at harvest and using 100% of my crops for food. I have seen some variation in the size of my farm. Sometimes I don't refill all my plots and they stand empty until I find more seeds. I think it is a good LOTL 1 strategy to do gardening in this fashion. If anyone is frustrated because their farm is failing or frustrated because all their crops are going to maintaining the size and/or growing the farm, then I recommend trying this out.

Wrong or stupid, I am having fun and finding success.

 

[GlyphGryph]

It might be worth making that more obvious? Maybe throw it in a tooltip or the perk description? I think most people that enjoy farming enjoy the sustainability aspect of it and that's what they generally aim for even when its inefficient to do so, and it might just not occur to people to farm in such an atypical way. I'm not sure if there's anything in the game that would indicate thats the intended way to play either. There's no actual in game mention of the seed chance that I could find.

 

[Roland]

I guess I still don't understand the farming changes in terms of making the game more enjoyable to play. If it really does basically amount to "You need max level farming to actually maintain a farm" which, you know, fine, I guess? But that doesn't seem like it actually changes much except that it means any player not going full bore into that tree isn't going to be able to reliably make good food and drinks, and... is that really the desirable outcome?

Your goals for farming probably determines whether it is enjoyable. If you get pleasure out of the achievement of seeing a large 100 plot farm and like to achieve that easily and quickly then the new farming may not be as enjoyable. @meganoth says that anyone should be able to grow a large farm at just one point investment but that it will take work and patience and won't be as easy as A19. For people who like a challenge and gradual progression then the tougher and slower climb to 100 plot farm is definitely going to be more enjoyable and rewarding.

Meganoth claims that you don't have to go all in to maintain and increase your farm size. A single point will do it which means that the devs are not requiring people to get to level 3 if they want a big farm.

As for making things less reliable, I do believe that is something the developers value in their survival game. They don't want things to just be deterministic and 100% controlled by the player. They do want some risk of failure and setbacks and misfortunes that the player must overcome and adapt to as they play. If a player does go full bore into a perk they should have a significantly better advantage within that sphere than other players who chose not to do so.

 

[quyxkh]

I don't get it.

If you want a sustainable farm, drop a perk point into LotL and build/maintain a substantial reserve for when your character's rookie mistakes cost you, which they will. If you get lucky your character won't screw up too much before you've got a reserve, but nobody's *always* lucky except little boys in their dreams. If you want a steady, reliably profitable farm, turn pro: drop seven perk points into Fort5/LotL3, that's like four-five-six days of leveling, plus four of those points amortize into other good things.

Low-skilled farming has risks now but even a 1PP spend is enough to make it sustainable in SP if you're smart about it.

And you don't have to farm at all if you're playing mmo-style with npc quests and all that hoohah.

 

[meganoth]

One person says that my statement about farms increasing and diminishing over time is stupid because at LOTL 1 your farm is just going to diminish until you have nothing left.

You probably have misread the message of that "impolite" person. He was saying the same as I did.

Your advice is still something to consider even for LotL1 just because it is a viable strategy to get the food for the least possible work

You say that my statement that people should not use crops to craft seeds at LOTL 1 is wrong because mathematically the probability that your farm will diminish to nothing is very very small and that you should be able to maintain/increase your farm at LOTL 1 if you are dedicated to that goal.

<shrug>

I will take back my claims that the farm won't completely diminish and my claim that the farm won't grow since I haven't in fact personally experienced either path to its conclusion. 

I will just state that I have been having a lot of fun simply planting seeds I find, buy, and get at harvest and using 100% of my crops for food. I have seen some variation in the size of my farm. Sometimes I don't refill all my plots and they stand empty until I find more seeds. I think it is a good LOTL 1 strategy to do gardening in this fashion. If anyone is frustrated because their farm is failing or frustrated because all their crops are going to maintaining the size and/or growing the farm, then I recommend trying this out.

Wrong or stupid, I am having fun and finding success.

 

[Roland]

It might be worth making that more obvious? Maybe throw it in a tooltip or the perk description? I think most people that enjoy farming enjoy the sustainability aspect of it and that's what they generally aim for even when its inefficient to do so, and it might just not occur to people to farm in such an atypical way. I'm not sure if there's anything in the game that would indicate thats the intended way to play either. There's no actual in game mention of the seed chance that I could find.

Meganoth says you CAN sustain and even grow a farm at just one point into LOTL. Its just that your margins will be razor thin so you have to most likely make a choice for your crop use between either seeds or food and not expect to have both. If you choose seeds then your farm will maintain and grow but you won't likely be eating very much from it. I took the other path and always eat my food and never turn them into seeds so my farm diminishes and increases as luck has it-- but I'm eating well and for me the farm is serving its purpose.

 

[GlyphGryph]

For people who like a challenge

I don't think there's any challenge to farming even now with these changes. It's the same outcome, it just either takes a lot longer or takes more point investments, right? Yeah, you can suffer a random crop failure and its more likely early on but that's not really a challenge, because there's nothing for a player to overcome there, the solution is to just keep doing the same thing and hope it works next time until it does because it will, right?

Of course, I also don't think the people who like to farm are generally playing to be challenged to begin with, but that's a different question altogether. I do think it would be nice if farming offered some challenges, though!

As for making things less reliable, I do believe that is something the developers value in their survival game. They don't want things to just be deterministic and 100% controlled by the player. They do want some risk of failure and setbacks and misfortunes that the player must overcome and adapt to as they play. If a player does go full bore into a perk they should have a significantly better advantage within that sphere than other players who chose not to do so.

This is where you lose me. You say failures and setbacks and misfortunes are things the player must overcome and adapt to - where is that element, here? What's the counterplay a random coin flip seed loss? You can put 3 levels in farming, but that's not exactly an accomplishment where you can say you adapted and overcame, you know? It's obvious some failure risks and setbacks add to the gameplay experience and some don't - a random chance of a heart attack unless you maxxed your cardio skill could be justified the same way, but I think we both agree that would be a terrible mechanic.

If a player maxes out, say, their spear skill, they're gonna do a good deal more damage, they're gonna be better at overcoming the actual challenges offered by fighting, but they'll still be engaging with the mechanic and actually using that advantage to overcome said challenges, perhaps in different ways with different builds.

I guess I don't see any of those elements coming into play for farming or the farming skill progression. What's the intended core gameplay loop for the farming experience, I guess is what I'm asking, and wouldn't it make more sense to add some sort of challenges that require player interactivity to overcome instead? Most people seem to believe its the standard farm loop of "plant, grow, profit, repeat" with a steadily growing farm, where your skill and stats allow it to become bigger and more complex over time with more valuable crops, but it sounds like that's not actually the intended loop?

But eh, you don't really need to answer. I apologize if I'm coming off as frustrating or hostile here, I really am just confused. I don't even really hate the change! I have no strong opinion one way or another, it just feels lateral in a not great way.

 

[Roland]

You probably have misread the message of that impolite person. He was saying the same as I did.

Your advice is still something to consider even for LotL1 just because it is a viable strategy to get the food for the least possible work

Ah...I went back and reread and got his meaning this time. I think both answers to the claim: "farms fail at less than LOTL 3" are fine. Showing them that they can slowly grow their farm size at the sacrifice of having very much to eat from it is good and also showing them that you can survive off of a luck garden if you use all your crops for food recipes and don't worry about seeds.

The thing is you can switch to either strategy at any time.