PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

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khzmusik said:
I should have been clearer. When I said "FPS" I probably should have said "combat" - I include melee.

And, I too enjoy finding things like mushroom seeds, but in previous alphas that thrill was pretty much over once you found your first seed. From then on out, you were all set for that crop.

I'd much rather have that thrill be there even in late game, and right now it's not. That was what I was getting at.

EDIT: I'm also not trying to rag on people who like combat. I like it too. I just want the survival aspects to get harder in the same way that killing zombies gets harder.
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I appreciate that, and I'm with you on the survival front.

I think farming has taken a hit because of a larger as of yet unaddressed issue with food. It has resulted in bizarre outcomes like more food drainage when driving as oppsed to sprinting across the map (if I recall correctly.)

Until a reasonable proposition is in, for example food spoilage, as was suggested previously, other systems are going to take blows in it's place.

 
Beelzebubs Ghost said:
Again, not anywhere near a desciption of myself as a player or my playstyle.

I love the mining and building aspects of the game, trying to create a little eden and struggling to do so.

As much as it's frustrating, I've had games where myself and friends all looting and scavenging took weeks in game to come across a single mushroom spore.

It was like Christmas came early, especially considering some recipies require it.

I do enjoy fending off the undead/semidead, but I much prefer brawling melee, and not guns. FPS playstyle is not something I would include in my own personal gaming experience, and any gun play or varied weapon use is as a means of brute survival more than anything else.

If later perking does indeed negate this seed disappearing garbage, then I will spec into it and not have any problem.

However, even if I can avoid this and enjoy, I sam still considerate enough for lesser fortunate individuals who have a tendency to imvest in other builds and rarely put anything bar minimum into the farming perk.

Just because they don't play farmer builds, they shouldn't be shafted either. Less crops per harvest is bad enough.
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Such a memorable christmas-came-early feeling should happen from time to time in a game. This is why I like randomness.

 
Beelzebubs Ghost said:
I appreciate that, and I'm with you on the survival front.

I think farming has taken a hit because of a larger as of yet unaddressed issue with food. It has resulted in bizarre outcomes like more food drainage when driving as oppsed to sprinting across the map (if I recall correctly.)

Until a reasonable proposition is in, for example food spoilage, as was suggested previously, other systems are going to take blows in it's place.
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I don't think the issue was that food drainage was worse when driving, it was that driving drained food at all. At least, that's what I remember.

Also, it was possible to mod in food spoilage in A19 (I have a mod that does it), and hopefully it will be possible in A20 as well. But it should be possible to balance food without resorting to modding in food spoilage. IMHO the farming changes are a step in that direction.

Regardless, even without food spoilage, I'm pretty sure modders can change the farming just through XML. I'm sure we'll have a dozen mods that do it by the time A20 is stable. :)  (And that is a complement to 7D2D, I don't think most people comprehend how much work it takes for a game to be this easy to mod.)

 
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meganoth said:
For comparison, here is the (hopefully correct) math for farming in A20:

Assume you have 10 seeds and LotL 1. After 3 days this yields 30 produce and on average you have 5 seeds left (in your inventory for A20, already in the farm plot with my idea). To replace the 5 spoiled seeds you need 5*5 = 25 of the produce which means your surplus out of 10 farming plots per 3-day-season is 30-25 = 5 produce.
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Your math is incorrect for A20 farming

Player grown farm plot crop with no perks yield 2 produce per harvest 

LotL1 doubles your harvest so 4 produce per farm plot harvested

LotL3 triples the harvest so 6 produce per farm plot harvested.

So 10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 25 to make replacement seeds = net 15 produce

10 farm plots with LotL3 gives you 60 produce -25 for replacement seeds = net 35 produce

So farming with a one point investment is profitable and with LotL3 is a better return than A19's net 30 for 10 farm plots

 
Eh, if you can't be bothered replanting your crops, then don't farm. It isn't tedious, it's part of surviving. Like khzmusik said, it seems like the people that have issues with this don't enjoy the survival aspect as much. But that's what the game is, a "survival horde crafting game". They've gotten away from a lot of the survival stuff over time, so I'm glad to see them adding some of it back in.

 
Ok I understand now, that is definitely a welcome change I think.  I am sick of seeing massive community gardens making food trivial for anyone even new starters.

 
TPrice321 said:
So 10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 25 to make replacement seeds = net 15 produce
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Not quite, because there's a 50% chance to get seeds back. If you don't then you will need to use 5 "produce" (or "fruits") to create another seed.

In the worst case scenario, where RNG gives you no seeds:

10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 50 produce to make replacement seeds = net loss of 10 produce. Meaning, you will use all 40 produce to make 8 seeds, have no produce, and 2 of your plots will be empty.

But that's the extreme situation. Assuming exactly 50% of the harvest gives you seeds, it's as you said:

10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce + 5 seeds - 25 produce to make replacement seeds = net gain of 15 produce

Not terrible, but an average chance of 1.5 produce per plot is still far less than the guaranteed 2 you would get in A19.

...Still not criticizing the change, just explaining peoples' concerns.

 
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bdubyah said:
Eh, if you can't be bothered replanting your crops, then don't farm. It isn't tedious, it's part of surviving. Like khzmusik said, it seems like the people that have issues with this don't enjoy the survival aspect as much. But that's what the game is, a "survival horde crafting game". They've gotten away from a lot of the survival stuff over time, so I'm glad to see them adding some of it back in.
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The way people flip flop astounds me.

Devs add something, they get praised for the great idea. Devs remove said idea, and are praised because people knew it was crap all along.

I really wonder what the opposition to my sentiments, as part of a thought experiment, would comment if the devs saw this and thought 'Let's revert the changes and keep the A19 setup.'

On @Tprice321 's point, if the maths checks out and the yield is greater then doesn't that do as myself and @Khalagar suggested and just add a layer of unnecessary and obstructive tedium in seed management?

Anyway, to all you guys I am grateful because at least we are having a good discussion about this 👍🏻

 
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TPrice321 said:
Your math is incorrect for A20 farming

Player grown farm plot crop with no perks yield 2 produce per harvest 

LotL1 doubles your harvest so 4 produce per farm plot harvested

LotL3 triples the harvest so 6 produce per farm plot harvested.

So 10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 25 to make replacement seeds = net 15 produce

10 farm plots with LotL3 gives you 60 produce -25 for replacement seeds = net 35 produce

So farming with a one point investment is profitable and with LotL3 is a better return than A19's net 30 for 10 farm plots
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Never expect to actually get a 50% return on a 50% probability in any game when using sample sizes below 1000. Most likely, from my experience over the years, is 20%-30% return, getting a seed in this case, on a 50% probability. So 3 seeds tops needing 35 fruit for full replant leaving 5 fruit left over. The first trick is actually getting those first 10 seeds for the calculations you and @meganoth did to even be possible. Doing it through farming from 1-2 seeds ain't likely to happen and from what I recall it is a sub 10% chance for any seed to drop in trash and un broken sinks.

 
Just saw TFP "pre game pup talk" video on YouTube and thought it meant A20 was live, never opened steam so fast.... and closed it so slowly in disappointment.

 
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Beelzebubs Ghost said:
The way people flip flop astounds me.

Devs add something, they get praised for the greag idea. Devs remove said idea, and are praised because people knew it was crap all along.

I really wonder what the opposition to my sentiments, as part of a thought experiment, would comment if the devs saw this and thought 'Let's revert the changes and keep the A19 setup.'

On @Tprice321 's point, if the maths checks out and the yield is greater then doesn't that do as myself and @Khalagar suggested and just add a layer of unnecessary and obstructive tedium in seed management?

Anyway, to all you guys I am grateful because at least we are having a good discussion about this 👍🏻
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Except his math isn't correct, as pointed out by khzmusik and heimfire. So it isn't just a layer of unnecessary tedium.

And there have been several things added, and removed since I've been playing the game that I agree and disagree with. This is one I agree with. People are just lazy and want unlimited food with as little effort as possible. If this change is tedious and game-ruining for you, find or make a mod to correct it. It will take literally 10 seconds to undo the change.

 
Ok if you didn't think that completely unexpected alpha 20 pre game pup talk video was funny!?? I don't know what to say..

I totally got super bowl puppy bowl vibes! 😂

 
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bdubyah said:
Except his math isn't correct, as pointed out by khzmusik and heimfire. So it isn't just a layer of unnecessary tedium.

And there have been several things added, and removed since I've been playing the game that I agree and disagree with. This is one I agree with. People are just lazy and want unlimited food with as little effort as possible. If this change is tedious and game-ruining for you, find or make a mod to correct it. It will take literally 10 seconds to undo the change.
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Astronomical said:
Ok if you didn't think that completely unexpected alpha 20 pre game pup talk video was funny!?? I don't know what to say..

I totally got super bowl puppy bowl vibes! 😂
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Where is this thing? 🤔

 
About farming:

A simple reality added would solve anyone's concerns that once a farm is established, food survival is over.

Add food spoilage! 

OR on blood moon night ALL FOOD SPOILS (except canned goods) to add another scary element to BM nights!

 
Aldranon said:
OR on blood moon night ALL FOOD SPOILS (except canned goods) to add another scary element to BM nights!
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If the canned goods explode destroying the containers, including vending machines and traders/players, they're in instead of spoiling then I'd be for it.

 
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