PC Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?

[Laz Man]

Okay... well that is not what the devpost said, but nice to hear that!

While this argument certainly is valid, there was, I feel an even bigger problem, which was the gameplay.
You said zombies were scarier than ever before.
For me, they were just tightrope walking piniatas.
They were 100% predictable.
It was never easier to build a 100% hordesafe base with like 20 blocks and the fact that they all came running down the same small hallway made it extremely easy... laughably easy to survive ANYTHING.
There was no need to upgrade your whole base.
Just make everything cobblestone and leave a 1x2 opening and they will funnel through it.

While beeing absolutely hilariously bad behaviour, the biggest problem was that I and as far as I have read the reviews and feedback support me on this, that they became super predictable, and therefor easy to exploit. WAY too easy to exploit.
There were exploits in <A16 and there always will be.
But in A16 they were far more complex and without a youtube video to help, you probably didn't stumble upon it by chance.
In A17 it was literally "they walk in a line and always take the path of least resistance, lets make a funnel ontop of another funnel and just shoot lul"

I can empathize with players who don't like tower defense game mechanics but this is actually working as designed.  There needs to be some degree of predictability in order to plan your defenses against it.   

The AI will most certainly continue to be tweaked further to hit a "sweet spot" of predictability but with some variation, especially as bandits and special infected are introduced.

 

[unholyjoe]

yep and you only need to watch the ai in action a few times to learn how or what its doing and then back to square 1. its a never ending argument.

 

[Laz Man]

yep and you only need to watch the ai in action a few times to learn how or what its doing and then back to square 1. its a never ending argument.

Yep, until we have Hal9000 level AI lol, some players will eventually learn the AI behavior and request more randomness because now its too easy.... or claim its broken because they cant beat it. 

The demo zombie were exactly that until players cracked it and there are enough youtube videos showing how....

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I can empathize with players who don't like tower defense game mechanics but this is actually working as designed.  There needs to be some degree of predictability in order to plan your defenses against it.   

The AI will most certainly continue to be tweaked further to hit a "sweet spot" of predictability but with some variation, especially as bandits and special infected are introduced.

But... this isn't a traditional TD game.
You can not make a traditional TD game (so a 2D game with only one path) in a 3D builder, without one or the other feeling useless.
They are mutually exclusive genres.
I like the TD aspect of the game actually. I love building traps and seeing them in action.
But not on a 2D plane, but as a 3D "denfed everywhere or they might break through" kinda thing.

Yep, until we have Hal9000 level AI lol, some players will eventually learn the AI behavior and request more randomness because now its too easy.... or claim its broken because they cant beat it. 

The demo zombie were exactly that until players cracked it and there are enough youtube videos showing how....

Nonono.
there is a difference between " a toddler can make out the pattern" and out of 3 million players, a handful have cracked it and are sharing it online.
There IS a difference.

That is the same argument as the cheating argument.
There is a difference between a broken feature that lets you win the game easily (lets say RL had no friendly fire and endless ammo, and that was intended) and a cheat that you purposefully need to activate through a console, which you might also need to activate in the .ini file.

Saying "just don't activate the console" is valid.
Saying "just don't use the intended ingame possibilities" is not.

Same here.
Saying "a toddler can make a base that outsmarts teh zombies"
and "I needed to look in the internet, where every answer is somewhere" is not the same.

I still do not have a way to fight sploders. And I love it.
If it was super easy like "they are vulnerable to fire and instantly die", I wouldn't enjoy it.

But if I need to look online for like a specific trapsetup that kills them without exploding, then that is absolutely fine.
Those that want it, can look it up, those that don't, dont.

 

[Matt115]

People who feel hyped over new behaviors (whether or not those behaviors seem to fit well with the game to other people) is because they offer new challenges for base building and new tactics for defending and fighting zombies. Old tactics may have to be adjusted or may not even work any longer. For some people, this is simply an annoyance and super frustrating. For others, the gameplay of adapting and exploring new tactics is fun and new or different behaviors set up the opportunity for that gameplay to happen again.

Think of it like a brand new POI. For those who love to explore and clear POI's they've never seen before, the prospect of 100+ new POI's generates a lot of hype in their hearts because they know they will have something new to play with.

The same is true for those of us who like to adapt and strategize vs zombie behaviors. New behaviors or changes to their behaviors that create new challenges get us hyped.

A lot of people hated A17 because they felt the behavior didn't fit what zombies should be able to do. For them, the most important thing was consistent dumb zombies that "don't have a degree in engineering or ESP abilities about structure they don't have line of sight to" For me and others like me, A17 was a blast because we just forgave the misfit behavior and got to having fun finding new ways to adapt.

honestly i feel 90% times absolutly nothing when i play alone. honestly changing "tactics" because updates is as you say frustrating - okay if you need change your tactic because for example there in new drowned zombie .  

What i can say about POI ? well some of them are good like electric shop with body in toilet.  I know it is a problem of random generatic worlds but they are quiet empty - i will give example . In dying light when you enter to "cointament zone" in one of them you can find hanging person. on cliffs you can find shoes and dead body in see. in nza you can find places looking like last stand of soldiers primitive barricades or places when they were attacked when they sleep. in l4d2 you can find maps of ceda, military barricedes cars in walls, etc.  7DTD have destroyed bulding but it's looks like-  someone drop atomic bomb on empty cities and someday survivors cames they fail and we get there. well what is need in my opions is details - hanging body on attick, skeleton on chair , posters about zombies maybe lefted whiteboards with random notes. drawnings on walls ashed body of atom bomb victim. honestly lore or random notes can be added easly. Now i know like - "there is a house if you destroy paitings you can find stuff, i have XX gamestange so i can only find tier 3 shotgun or smg. small chance for screamer.  Yep some pill and random zombie im cabin nothing interesting move on." i know this alpha but - it can be added some stuff in minecraft - big skeleton under ghost town, paitings in caves , notes in secret lab etc.  

 

[Roland]

Okay... well that is not what the devpost said, but nice to hear that!

Yes, thanks  I updated it to be more accurate.

You said zombies were scarier than ever before.
For me, they were just tightrope walking piniatas.

I think that's because I was focusing on exploring POI's and spending the night on the roof of a house or inside a building when I couldn't get back to my base in my comment and you are focusing on horde night defense in your comment. I agree with you that they were too easily exploitable on horde night with minimal building effort and as I posted above, this is another time when TFP listened to feedback and made adjustments. The scary feeling was in having zombies wander in from outside while clearing a POI or doing a quest or a wandering horde notice me at night when away from my designed defenses. When having to wing it and survive the night in some house the zombies would be so much scarier because they would often run up and break a wall to run around on the roof and then come in through another wall behind me. I had a lot of close escapes as well as several deaths due to that.

I would hear a pack of dogs and get myself to the roof of a house only to see them rush into the house and know that my death was really just a few moments away unless I could do something soon as I heard the sounds of blocks breaking and barking within.

 

[Jost Amman]

For them, the most important thing was consistent dumb zombies that "don't have a degree in engineering or ESP abilities about structure they don't have line of sight to"

Actually, that could be explained very easily by saying the zombies retain some memory of the places where they used to work and live.

It would make sense, since most zombies you run into probably died nearby and kept roaming around the same familiar places.

But in A16 they were far more complex and without a youtube video to help, you probably didn't stumble upon it by chance.
In A17 it was literally "they walk in a line and always take the path of least resistance, lets make a funnel ontop of another funnel and just shoot lul"

Now, I understand that for some people that comes as something silly... BUT ... nobody seems to remember that 7D2D has been advertised also as a TD game.

If you accept that, we can easily say that with A17 the zombie AI was finally put back on track with the game genre.

Personally, I don't mind a bit of variety in AI pathing/behavior, but knowing that the general idea for Horde Night is that of a tower defense game is kind of comforting.  

 

[Jost Amman]

But... this isn't a traditional TD game.
You can not make a traditional TD game (so a 2D game with only one path) in a 3D builder, without one or the other feeling useless.
They are mutually exclusive genres.

Absolutely not. There are several TD titles that have had a fair amount of success in the last years that are exactly 3D traditional TD games.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Absolutely not. There are several TD titles that have had a fair amount of success in the last years that are exactly 3D traditional TD games.

give me a single 3D builder TD game.
Like where you can build in 3D space, but the A.I. only ever follows the easiest path.

Because those two concept are, as I said, mutually exclusive. Where the one excels, the other one has to compromise.


If they only take one path, the rest of the build is pointless, if they don't take a single path, it is not a traditional TD (which is fine! I was just saying that them following one path makes building in 3D space totally obsolete.

Why build a maze, if they only ever follow one path?

 

[Jost Amman]

give me a single 3D builder TD game.

Kingdoms and Castles and Sanctum (1&2) for example.

They're not very common, but they do exist.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Kingdoms and Castles and Sanctum (1&2) for example.

They're not very common, but they do exist.

As far as I cna tell the A.I. is not heatseeking either.
They attack the closes points. But that is not the same as following one exact path to the weakest point.
Also... that is a 2D game...
Yes it is in 3D, but there are only 2 axis.


I was a HUGE fan of a WC3 mod called "Geldteilen" (and other similar ones) where it was actually necessary to exploit the A.I. with some classes to get the most out of your tower.

But those are not the same.
While this is somewhat a builder, it is not really a TD game.
That is because TD means trying to defend with stategic placement of traps and towers...
This is just a strategy game like any other.

Stronghold is not a tower defense game, no matter what you wanna claim.
If we include games like this, TD Games lose their meaning and we need another name for the ACTUAL TD games.


PS: Could someone move all the irrelevant posts for the OP?
This has become so far off topic, I feel sorry for OP, but I can't let inaccuracies stand like that

 

[Roland]

I will if the OP asks me to but who can tell what @Kyonshi thinks. Maybe they're just thrilled their conversation starter took off and they aren't so concerned about sticking strictly to player entitlement. No need to feel sorry for them if they are perfectly happy with how the thread is going.

 

[Jost Amman]

Also... that is a 2D game...
Yes it is in 3D, but there are only 2 axis.

In Kingdom & Castles you can build multi-tier walls and scaffolding so that the enemy will follow the path up or down depending on where your defending troops are.

It's not the same as 7D2D of course, but they'll follow the path of least resistance to their objective in a 3D environment.

I'm not sure about Sanctum since I played that one a LONG time ago, but it was a 3D TD game in first person where monsters tried to reach your base, and you could move around placing walls and turrets and shooting them (similar to this is also Orcs Must Die).

 

[Laz Man]

Who are we to say what genres can or cannot be mixed together?   Game devs are constantly mixing and matching genres together creating all new experiences and if the end result is fun for the majority of people I'd say thats a job well done.

If you had asked me 10 years ago if I would enjoy an open world voxel sandbox type game with tower defense elements I probably would be skeptical yet here I am...

On a side note, there is a fairly new game called tribes of Midgard that similar survival/crafting with tower defense mechanics where a horde of enemies attacks your "base" from 3 different directions on a daily basis.

In that game you can build some towers and defenses but ultimately the player can't do anything to alter the path of the AI at all apart from killing them out right.

Whereas the the TD in 7d2d is so much more engaging since players can customize there base with so many different options to defend.

Name me one tower defense game where the AI is more fun to play against as I would love to check it out myself.

 

[Maharin]

7 Turns To Die - Civilization meets Might and Magic with the graphics of Bard's Tale II.

 

[Aldranon]

Specifically talking about this game:

Morally the devs have done the best of their ability to make the best game they can and have gone to great lengths to supersede their initial efforts repeatedly and eventually by hiring new talent. 

Legally its a wash but even if the supreme court rescind Steam's "get what you get" policy.  It would be very easy to defend TFP because they did and are going above and beyond what a reasonable person would expect. 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Who are we to say what genres can or cannot be mixed together?  

It is not wether they can exist together.
I can also put a big block of ice on a campfire.
But one WILL take away from the other.
And that is not an opinion. You can not have a free builder AND a "follow set path" without the builder feeling somewhat pointless.

Sure I could imagine a game that exists where you can build and direct the enemies to your liking while the rest is a builder... but that only means that the two features don't lock in with each other.
It is basicially two different games then. A builder and a TD game.
Just linked by a small chain of... 'ressources' maybe?

 

[meganoth]

give me a single 3D builder TD game.
Like where you can build in 3D space, but the A.I. only ever follows the easiest path.

Because those two concept are, as I said, mutually exclusive. Where the one excels, the other one has to compromise.


If they only take one path, the rest of the build is pointless, if they don't take a single path, it is not a traditional TD (which is fine! I was just saying that them following one path makes building in 3D space totally obsolete.

Why build a maze, if they only ever follow one path?

Generally you have taken 7D2D alpha17 as example of a TD with one path and 3D builder mix and now argue you have proven that it isn't possible because alpha17 couldn't do it? But that is not conclusive, you have to show that ALL POSSIBLE implementation of such a genre-mix need to compromise, not just one.

Just as a small counterexample, the one path is susceptible to exploder zombies. Who can say what the result would have been if TFP had added smaller version of exploders who spawn from day one? And if that isn't enough, what if they added some AI that makes exploder zombies acting different than other zombies? What if they made the changes that they actually did in A18? A small percentage of zombies that don't follow the one path was done exactly to combat the easy exploit and I don't see anyone argue that A17's AI was complete and free of cheese.

Secondly your definition of a traditional TD is not the last word on that, especially since exact definitions are almost impossible with games where standards shift with every new game.

According to wikipedia TD began with Dune II and gained popularity with Starcraft. I couldn't find any Dune II TD maps but a lot of Starcraft maps, and those have an arbitrary numbers of paths. Unless you define traditional to not even include the old Starcraft I your definition is just very very narrow. And if you exclude it we would have to call Starcraft I as modern !????

A17 was the very first version of the new AI and you are comparing it to a A16 AI which had at least a few iterations of fixes through the years to combat easy exploits. There is no question A17's AI was exploitable, but it was still more fun to a lot of people. The fun naturally depends on how fast someone stumbles on an easy exploit. My group for example did not and consequently even horde nights were interesting for us and for the first time in 7D2D it felt like tower defense and not just like a 3D Stronghold.

I actually agree with you that A16s AI is generally and even as a matter of principle less susceptible to exploits/cheese! But the problem is that the principle of a successful Tower Defense game **is** to "exploit" the enemies strategy by some degree. Naturally not in a way that it becomes trivial.

And that makes it much more difficult to get right, especially in a game without limits to building. It is no surprise that the first iteration did have some pronounced weaknesses. But on the other hand without the profound AI change in A17 we would not have real Tower Defense but just a gameplay reminiscent of Stronghold type games. And since you said it above I'm sure we agree that Stronghold is not traditional Tower Defense, no matter what "traditional" means.

 

[Matt115]

Who are we to say what genres can or cannot be mixed together?   Game devs are constantly mixing and matching genres together creating all new experiences and if the end result is fun for the majority of people I'd say thats a job well done.

If you had asked me 10 years ago if I would enjoy an open world voxel sandbox type game with tower defense elements I probably would be skeptical yet here I am...

On a side note, there is a fairly new game called tribes of Midgard that similar survival/crafting with tower defense mechanics where a horde of enemies attacks your "base" from 3 different directions on a daily basis.

In that game you can build some towers and defenses but ultimately the player can't do anything to alter the path of the AI at all apart from killing them out right.

Whereas the the TD in 7d2d is so much more engaging since players can customize there base with so many different options to defend.

Name me one tower defense game where the AI is more fun to play against as I would love to check it out myself.

orc must die - you have barricades - if they have 1 open wide enough way they want to go there way. -  some enemies just walk and attack, some of them are focused on destroying traps, some of them fly and shot, some of them are focused on hunting of your character. so it is pretty fun. 

metal gear survival on end game locations.  it is grind fest in typical japan style. You need to get a lot of good turrets , upgraded weapons, a lot of ammo to make this levels. you have in limited time find resources , grind crystall so get good score and protect device.  enemies have large number and can take a lot of dmg , you have armored ones,  mix of mortal and automatic shotgun tough guy, jumping karate zombies or..... dragonfly. 

So a lot of types of enemies = something interresting

 

[Matt115]

Generally you have taken 7D2D alpha17 as example of a TD with one path and 3D builder mix and now argue you have proven that it isn't possible because alpha17 couldn't do it? But that is not conclusive, you have to show that ALL POSSIBLE implementation of such a genre-mix need to compromise, not just one.

Just as a small counterexample, the one path is susceptible to exploder zombies. Who can say what the result would have been if TFP had added smaller version of exploders who spawn from day one? And if that isn't enough, what if they added some AI that makes exploder zombies acting different than other zombies? What if they made the changes that they actually did in A18? A small percentage of zombies that don't follow the one path was done exactly to combat the easy exploit and I don't see anyone argue that A17's AI was complete and free of cheese.

Secondly your definition of a traditional TD is not the last word on that, especially since exact definitions are almost impossible with games where standards shift with every new game.

According to wikipedia TD began with Dune II and gained popularity with Starcraft. I couldn't find any Dune II TD maps but a lot of Starcraft maps, and those have an arbitrary numbers of paths. Unless you define traditional to not even include the old Starcraft I your definition is just very very narrow. And if you exclude it we would have to call Starcraft I as modern !????

A17 was the very first version of the new AI and you are comparing it to a A16 AI which had at least a few iterations of fixes through the years to combat easy exploits. There is no question A17's AI was exploitable, but it was still more fun to a lot of people. The fun naturally depends on how fast someone stumbles on an easy exploit. My group for example did not and consequently even horde nights were interesting for us and for the first time in 7D2D it felt like tower defense and not just like a 3D Stronghold.

I actually agree with you that A16s AI is generally and even as a matter of principle less susceptible to exploits/cheese! But the problem is that the principle of a successful Tower Defense game **is** to "exploit" the enemies strategy by some degree. Naturally not in a way that it becomes trivial.

And that makes it much more difficult to get right, especially in a game without limits to building. It is no surprise that the first iteration did have some pronounced weaknesses. But on the other hand without the profound AI change in A17 we would not have real Tower Defense but just a gameplay reminiscent of Stronghold type games. And since you said it above I'm sure we agree that Stronghold is not traditional Tower Defense, no matter what "traditional" means.

honestly i will tell this in 2  parts.

1. weaker  explorders zombie could be interesting. you know. you fall to cave or flooded basement  and there is drowned zombie - he will attack you like normal zombie but on death he have 50% chance to explosions. weak dmg against block and medium against player but high chance to infected you , broke legs and make bleeding.

2. honestly AI of zombies in 7dtd became... too smart. what i mean ? zombies in my opinion should have at least 2,5x  higher number that actuall. And be more stupid. if they can't get to you some of them should just stand there and watch at you . some of them ofc should be more aggresive and try to destroy blocks but  looking for diffrent way by jumping etc is just meh. i understand this in cod because magic ( yep magic demons 115, eterium btw honestly i want ww2 zombie game but without any magic like nza, cod or wolfenstein just zombie as infected people similiar to l4d2 or dead rising.)  7dtd most of them are "slow zombie"  so should be stupid but have big number. ofc we have feral zombies but they should have new "more fresh looking " as  infected a short time ago with models like zombie bandit or survivor. so zombie AI in 7dtd is bad because they are too smart.