PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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Khalagar said:
The shotgun is still the bigger issue because it's just too good. The only real reason to use the Sniper over the M60 is to save a bit on ammo, but if you are going for resource conservation, the shotgun is king, bar none. One shell per zed and the shotgun will clear an entire PoI for pocket change resource expenditure

Sniper play style is fun though, Hunting Rifle has always been one of my favorites in this game, but I never put perks into it. I usually carry one until I get an M60, but later on the M60 handles any long range  needs well enough to not need a sniper,  as well as many other roles the Sniper can't
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Maybe guns like the shotgun should simply have a slower reload animation, that alone will make it less effective with multiple zombies coming at you. Right now the reload is like two seconds to insert two cartridges ‘simultaneously’ which is rather out there but I know it’s only a game. 

Sniper options and gun mods present so many variations I think it be really hard to make all guns equal or better for one thing specific.

 
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IMO the problem is not with the Shotgun, the problem is with all long range weapons, but it's not TFP's fault.

The problem is that rifles and sniper-rifles should shine in VERY long range hits, but the game engine is not able/programmed to load entities that far.

In an ideal world IMO you should be able to zoom-in with the scope and see (i.e.) biome spawns (or even sleepers) that are 300/400 blocks away.

Then a sniper rifle would allow you to use that weapon tactically in the proper way.

Example: if you plan to go in the Factory POI you'd first be able to climb in a nearby rooftop and snipe out all zombies near the windows.

 
Jost Amman said:
In an ideal world IMO you should be able to zoom-in with the scope and see (i.e.) biome spawns (or even sleepers) that are 300/400 blocks away.

Then a sniper rifle would allow you to use that weapon tactically in the proper way.

Example: if you plan to go in the Factory POI you'd first be able to climb in a nearby rooftop and snipe out all zombies near the windows.
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Ohhhh so true. The price of a

fully destructible world and keeping the frames up.

Maybe with that in mind perhaps we should not have snipper rifles or at least scopes in the world  ?

As you rightfully say we can’t use them for there intended purpose after all. It reduces variety unfortunately but more hip or iron site guns could easily be introduced I am sure.  

 
Jost Amman said:
IMO the problem is not with the Shotgun, the problem is with all long range weapons, but it's not TFP's fault.

The problem is that rifles and sniper-rifles should shine in VERY long range hits, but the game engine is not able/programmed to load entities that far.

In an ideal world IMO you should be able to zoom-in with the scope and see (i.e.) biome spawns (or even sleepers) that are 300/400 blocks away.

Then a sniper rifle would allow you to use that weapon tactically in the proper way.

Example: if you plan to go in the Factory POI you'd first be able to climb in a nearby rooftop and snipe out all zombies near the windows.
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Perhaps a buff could be something along those lines. Worth asking. 

 
Jay_ombie said:
As you rightfully say we can’t use them for there intended purpose after all. It reduces variety unfortunately but more hip or iron site guns could easily be introduced I am sure.  
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I don't know how to solve this problem... I'm not a game designer after all.

If they can find a way to even up for the rifles range limit disadvantages in a voxel world then kudos to them!

But I don't think that adding more hip-fire weapons is the way to go, it's just a workaround, not a solution.

 
Like Jost Amman said, the issue is snipers have no real use case in a game where all the combat is at most at medium range. Also, it doesn't help that you can attach a big scope on a AK47, essentially turning it into a on-demand sniper with a bigger magazine and rate of fire...

 
Jost Amman said:
I don't know how to solve this problem... I'm not a game designer after all.

If they can find a way to even up for the rifles range limit disadvantages in a voxel world then kudos to them!

But I don't think that adding more hip-fire weapons is the way to go, it's just a workaround, not a solution.
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One way to solve the problem: Nerv the 2x scope and remove the option to put 4x scopes on AK, tactical rifles and M60.

 
beHypE said:
Like Jost Amman said, the issue is snipers have no real use case in a game where all the combat is at most at medium range. Also, it doesn't help that you can attach a big scope on a AK47, essentially turning it into a on-demand sniper with a bigger magazine and rate of fire...
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Which raises a side question, how many people actually use an 8x scope mod? I certainly haven't. Again, there's no need.

As I see it, the only workaround to make snipers more effective is to allow the higher end tiers and quality tiers to one-shot most zombies... which would most certainly raise balancing issues.

 
Tricky issue since as you pointed out, the primary use case for long range rifles cannot exist in the game.

Disallowing the 4x scopes for the MG is something I had been thinking about because they really are too universally useful with that. =P

Disallowing all scopes for MG is likely not going to fly since we have models for those.

What the rifles are definitely good at is AP / penetration in corridors. A lot of players just can't be arsed to make that work for them and instead grab and AK and fire a lot more bullets. /shrug

 
Gazz said:
Tricky issue since as you pointed out, the primary use case for long range rifles cannot exist in the game.

Disallowing the 4x scopes for the MG is something I had been thinking about because they really are too universally useful with that. =P

Disallowing all scopes for MG is likely not going to fly since we have models for those.

What the rifles are definitely good at is AP / penetration in corridors. A lot of players just can't be arsed to make that work for them and instead grab and AK and fire a lot more bullets. /shrug
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You can use AP Ammo on MGs. Also doing headshots while suffering from hordelack forces yout to use weapons with a high rate of fire and big magazins. So it is not only player slacking.

 
Gazz said:
Tricky issue since as you pointed out, the primary use case for long range rifles cannot exist in the game.

Disallowing the 4x scopes for the MG is something I had been thinking about because they really are too universally useful with that. =P

Disallowing all scopes for MG is likely not going to fly since we have models for those.

What the rifles are definitely good at is AP / penetration in corridors. A lot of players just can't be arsed to make that work for them and instead grab and AK and fire a lot more bullets. /shrug
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I was thinking that maybe ALL rifles (but especially the sniper one) could have a very high chance of a critical shot that multiplies the damage.

Just throwing there ideas that have already been used and tested in other games...

 
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@madmole

Are there plans to re-visit the apartment building (sorry I dont know the POI name)  its the one thats 4 or 5 stories, very square shaped and each apartment has its own balcony.  Top floor has skylights in 2 of the apartments.

We ran into this one yesterday (hadn't seen it in a while).  It was pretty meh compared to all the new and re-vamped POI's.  But the building looks like you could do a great dungeon rework on it.  Heck even just an update that brings it on par with the other buildings.

A19 has been very solid and impressive.  The game is better than ever. 

Thanks for all of TFPs  hard work. 

 
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So there I was, mining clay during the middle of the night with nothing to illuminate the area but my headlight (I have my brightness down to 38%)., listening to the eerie tunes of the night. I went through a sudden palpitation, my eyes wide and my body very temporarily petrified, as I heard the blood curdling growl of a bear right behind my #@&, so without thinking I immediately booked it in the opposite direction and quickly switched off my headlight before eventually coming to a stop and crouching in the tall grass surrounded by shadow. I am now slowly crawling my way back to my house where I'll spend the night tucked away in the basement next to my storage to wipe off the sweat and get over what just happened. It's night 5 and I don't have a gun as of yet. I should not have been out there. TFP have convinced me that until I get a trusty firearm... I'm staying indoors during the early hours. Well played on the animal spawns. Well played.

 
Jost Amman said:
I don't know how to solve this problem... I'm not a game designer after all.

If they can find a way to even up for the rifles range limit disadvantages in a voxel world then kudos to them!

But I don't think that adding more hip-fire weapons is the way to go, it's just a workaround, not a solution.
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It not all about long distance range.  On horde nights, where the rifles shine is with the penetrator perk and zombie choke points.

They are also more ammo efficient imo.

 
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MechanicalLens said:
So there I was, <snip>
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Moments as this one makes this game so good, always loved to be scared and reconsider my strategy back in a safe place.

Even better, as biomes get their own challenges in the future, it will make us unable to just loot and go and would be awesome. 

Can`t wait man. Keep meeting bea.. I mean keep having fun out there. 

 
Laz Man said:
It not all about long distance range.  On horde nights, where the rifles shine is with the penetrator perk and zombie choke points.
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Yes, you can do some serious damage but... being under the same attribute isn't enough of a hint for many. =P

 
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