PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Ranzera]

Well, it's exactly like the weapons perks... so, what's the difference here?

Like the weapons perks you could decide NOT to buy Pack Mule and still be able to find the Pockets schematics in the world.

The reason I don't like Pack Mule to give you extra slots on its own is because:

1. It's "too gamey" or unrealistic (I know, realism! ) because it just magically gives you those extra slots!
   
2. Because I've read lots of people, me included, just prefer to add Pockets over time and completely ignore the (current) PM skill and save the points.
   

If you, however, tie the perk to the pocket mods, putting even just one point in PM would be worth it and make this perk "palatable" again. 

Food for thought IMO...

I'd like Pack Mule a lot more if it just reduced your mobility penalties in a generic fashion (Like I said in my perk rebalance post). Let pockets reduce your encumbrance slots and Pack Mule boost your mobility when it's under 100%. Both become useful.

 

[Tmodloader]

I'd like Pack Mule a lot more if it just reduced your mobility penalties in a generic fashion (Like I said in my perk rebalance post). Let pockets reduce your encumbrance slots and Pack Mule boost your mobility when it's under 100%. Both become useful.

I'm still torn because oftentimes I end up with a full inventory even with no encumbrance slots, if pack mule instead added full inventory slots it would be a lot nicer
(or if as other people stated, new armor mods come out that make pocket mods be more questionable)

 

[Ranzera]

Same, these little tweaks are so important, other voxel engines seem to drop the ball on this more than they should, i.e. Minecraft and Space Engineers. SE runs well actually, on default and even high(with good machine), as long as one does not crank all the things to ultra, especially since you can also set in-game block limits super high, even unlimited on some, on top of that. Bwahahaha, careful! They do have warnings, but gamers like to crank settings to find those limits, and oh boy are they gonna if they do. Maxing out 32 GB of mobo RAM is lol what. You'd need a high end workstation/server to handle it, and I bet one could still break even that. It broke my rig more than high detail level engineering model assemblies(think full robot where each screw has spiral threading), and that's saying a lot.

You guys are def ahead of the game in this department with your engine, it really is a big deal. Again, kudos. 

??

My computer has 32gb of RAM running in quad channel mode and I built this thing 4 years ago. That's not a crazy amount of RAM to have, especially now.

 

[Jost Amman]

I'd like Pack Mule a lot more if it just reduced your mobility penalties in a generic fashion (Like I said in my perk rebalance post). Let pockets reduce your encumbrance slots and Pack Mule boost your mobility when it's under 100%. Both become useful.

It could be a nice alternative... though to be honest doesn't make much sense either.

Unless you mean that by better organizing your stuff you're less awkward when you move?

Edit: my point is pockets let you carry more stuff because they "add space" while Pack Mule lets you better organize the space you have hence use it more efficiently. By this logic when you DON't know Pack Mule your pockets are used (e.g.) up to 60/70% of their potential. After you learn PM you also raise this number until eventually you learn to fill your pockets up to near 100%.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Yea it is a bit of an issue to me that the only thing iron has on stone is taking longer per repair

im sure they will fix that up!

 

[Ranzera]

It could be a nice alternative... though to be honest doesn't make much sense either.

Unless you mean that by better organizing your stuff you're less awkward when you move?

Your load, regardless of source affects you less because you're used to hauling stuff around.

One of the main designs behind the perk system is replayability. Since hard choices are required at least for a while it allows replays to feel completely different if you try another route. The game was feeling stale to me as a STR build, so I am doing agility now and having a lot of fun "learning the ropes" again. Using padded or leather armor, sneaking, bows... its a completely different feeling. I can't wait to get a desert vulture and SMG.

Would you say that a loot system on rails has more replayability than a totally random loot system? IMO, when I know what to expect every time, my interest wanes quickly.

 

[Jost Amman]

Your load, regardless of source affects you less because you're used to hauling stuff around.

That is not how I was imagining this perk... I always thought Pack Mule is more about how good you're at packing your stuff in the space you have.

It's like a frequent traveler who learns to be very efficient at using the space in his trolley.

 

[madmole]

If anything, the Q6 stone shovel needs a look. It's better than the entire iron shovel tier.

This is wrong, Iron is 2 points better than stone, but the randomness can make it possible for stone to be better than iron.

 

[Ranzera]

This is wrong, Iron is 2 points better than stone, but the randomness can make it possible for stone to be better than iron.

2 points is meaningless. A quality 6 Stone Shovel can 2 hit dirt/resource blocks. An Iron Shovel is completely moot in this situation.

That is not how I was imagining this perk... I always thought Pack Mule is more about how good you're at packing your stuff in the space you have.

It's like a frequent traveler who learns to be very efficient at using the space in his trolley.

Sounds like you're only seeing the pack in the pack mule.

 

[madmole]

That is not how I was imagining this perk... I always thought Pack Mule is more about how good you're at packing your stuff in the space you have.

It's like a frequent traveler who learns to be very efficient at using the space in his trolley.

I've thought of it that way, but also thought of it as you are strong and can carry more. Whatever floats your immersion boat. Since it is under strength I'm going with "you are stronger".

 

[MechanicalLens]

2 points is meaningless. A quality 6 Stone Shovel can 2 hit dirt/resource blocks. An Iron Shovel is completely moot in this situation.

Agreed. Unless you're deep into Miner 69er and you have multiple points into sex rex, it doesn't matter if you're still using a level 6 stone shovel vs a level 3-4 iron since the latter will still take the same amount of hits to dig up the terrain, again, at the cost of more stamina. In my last playthrough I ended up using my level 6 stone shovel until I had acquired an ergonomic grip mod, I had nearly maxed out the mining perks, and I had crafted a level 5 iron shovel; the level 4 iron shovel I had crafted earlier on I ended up storing away, eventually selling.

I'm not saying it has to or not has to be looked at. One simply has to look beyond the numbers and if they're identical in terms of resource harvest speed, then you weigh the pros and cons.

 

[madmole]

2 points is meaningless. A quality 6 Stone Shovel can 2 hit dirt/resource blocks. An Iron Shovel is completely moot in this situation.

Sounds like you're only seeing the pack in the pack mule.

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

 

[Jost Amman]

I've thought of it that way, but also thought of it as you are strong and can carry more. Whatever floats your immersion boat. Since it is under strength I'm going with "you are stronger".

Yeah, maybe a bit of both... you can be as strong as you want but if you can't actually fit the things you're carrying on your back you're not going anywhere right? 

 

[MechanicalLens]

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

Again, true, but that's the end result. Until you get to that point - multiple mods including Grave Digger and an Ergonomic Grip, coffee, and a high-end iron shovel (level 5-6), it's simply not worth it if the resource harvest speed will be identical to the stone shovel, but the stone shovel takes far less stamina to swing and it only uses stones to repair. Again, the stone shovel will be outclassed, but from the get-go, a level 6 stone shovel will always outclass a basic level 4 iron shovel.

 

[Ranzera]

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

It doesn't matter how much more it has until you can easily get to the point where you 1 hit dirt/resource blocks (in which case you have the same problem, except with the steel shovel).

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for some amount of stamina with a stone shovel

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for more stamina with an iron shovel

Thusly, the Iron Shovel is inferior to the Stone Shovel.

This is a problem unique to the shovel line, because they are used on low HP blocks.

 

[Jost Amman]

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

At the end of the day though people will only look at how many hits it will take to dig the most common blocks (dirt/rock/iron and so on...) so if they don't get a useful increase they'll just choose one over the other.

An example would be the Q6 Stone Shovel 2 shotting dirt having the second hit with 36 points left compared to the Q6 Iron Shovel 2 shotting dirt having just 10 points left (i.e.), this would make no difference at all when you dig dirt and maybe most people would stick with the Stone Shovel.

Edit: lol, Ranzera was quicker...

 

[madmole]

The new animal spawns are pretty good. Basically you rarely see big game, but see a decent amount of chickens and rabbits. They respawn every day so there is always a chance to see something, no matter how saturated the server is with people. I get by on 2-3 chickens or rabbits a day. No animal tracker otherwise I'm sure I'd be doing better. I had to eat a sham sandwich today and buy some food from the vending. I sucked it up and bought rank 2 of cooking so I could use the potatoes and corn I had piled up in some stews so I'm good.

I think people will like it. Zombies respawn a little faster than before too so the world feels a bit more populated. There isn't MORE than there was, but it's kind of like day one where you see them in every chunk.

Predators are out at night, but fairly rare. It isn't crazy like the last build. Food is available if you work for it, otherwise you can struggle, but its nice to go hunting and be able to find something even on a busy server, as long as you are moving and not right behind one guy who is also hunting you should be fine.

It doesn't matter how much more it has until you can easily get to the point where you 1 hit dirt/resource blocks (in which case you have the same problem, except with the steel shovel).

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for some amount of stamina with a stone shovel

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for more stamina with an iron shovel

Thusly, the Iron Shovel is inferior to the Stone Shovel.

This is a problem unique to the shovel line, because they are used on low HP blocks.

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

I think there are some adjustments coming in the next patch, I told Gazz iron was a bit too heavy the other day so I think he lowered the weight 1 stam per second and that got me about 8 more hits with a pickaxe before gassing out (15 or 16 to 24).

 

[Ranzera]

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

Given how easy it is to get a Q6 Stone Shovel to 2 shot dirt, it'll always get clay at least as fast as the Iron Shovel. The Iron Shovel has the opportunity to perform much worse, given the stamina demands. Not to mention the extra food requirement.

I'm not sure if it's possible to get a Q6 Iron Shovel up to 1 hitting dirt, but if it does, then the Steel Shovel isn't the best shovel. That would be its own problem.

 

[MechanicalLens]

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

I think there are some adjustments coming in the next patch, I told Gazz iron was a bit too heavy the other day so I think he lowered the weight 1 stam per second and that got me about 8 more hits with a pickaxe before gassing out (15 or 16 to 24).

Sounds good.

Because at the end of the day, the three factors that determine mining efficiency are as follows:

- Amount of resources harvested per terrain block (dictated by Mother Lode)

- Stamina usage (loss?)

- # of hits until terrain block is destroyed

In other words, if it takes the same amount of hits to destroy x terrain block between two different tiers of tools, then nothing changes, even if one of the tools has a higher block damage value than the other. With that in mind, the next factor must be taken into consideration which is stamina usage. Even if one of the tools (the one that costs more stamina to swing) is ever so slightly faster at acquiring more resources (ie. swing speed), then that positive is rendered invalid if you lose stamina using said tool, because every moment spent waiting for your stamina to regen is time you could be actively mining, even with a slightly slower tool. Block damage is important, but it's not the end all be all.  

Not to toot my own horn, but I think that rounds of this discussion pretty nicely.

 

[Jost Amman]

Given how easy it is to get a Q6 Stone Shovel to 2 shot dirt, it'll always get clay at least as fast as the Iron Shovel. The Iron Shovel has the opportunity to perform much worse, given the stamina demands. Not to mention the extra food requirement.

I'm not sure if it's possible to get a Q6 Iron Shovel up to 1 hitting dirt, but if it does, then the Steel Shovel isn't the best shovel. That would be its own problem.

I know this is never going to happen, so I'm just throwing the idea on the table for the sake of brainstorming...

IMO a good way to differentiate the three tool tiers would be to put a gate on block-farming (which would also make sense IRL).

Example:

• Stone tools can only dig/break dirt, sand, coal and destroyed stone blocks
  
• Iron tools can ALSO dig/break KNO3, Lead and Shale nodes and any type of Stone Block + Cobblestone/Concrete
  
• Steel tools can ALSO dig/break Iron and R. Concrete (not Steel)
  

Or something along the lines...